Friday - March 05, 2010

BATF Seizure and Airsoft Update

See, that wasn’t so hard. A little bit of citizen journalism: politely ask the people and the company involved a couple questions and get some answers. I wonder why the MSM didn’t do that with this story? Could it be that they were just looking for a bit of sensationalism?

Drew,

It’s great to hear from you about this. We’ve actually been following this for quite some time now. And seen many of the articles and blogs posting about it.

Just as a disclaimer, we do not carry this model because of the possible risk involved with importing it. We believe there’s plenty of money to be made in other ways. However, having said that, we have had a reasonable amount of experience with this model that was seized. 

Before deciding not to carry this model we did have a few samples. We did catch word of the possible usage of it being so realistic that it could be modified to fire real bullets. One version we heard was that a real steal upper could be used with this lower. So, just out of curiosity, several personnel here brought in several of their AR’s to work to test with. We made several observations; I’ll start with general ones and move to more specific.

First off, the lower half although made of a metal, is really only made out of cast metal. This is a low quality nickel alloy that really can’t take much abuse. We really doubt it could take any of the abuse needed. Although true a majority of the stress is on the upper, but even the buffer tube takes a good amount of stress from the recoil. Most likely the rear of the frame would break and fly off if a round was hypothetically able to be fired.

Second, the top of a real AR does not fit the lower. We tested this on several different makes and models, none of which fit. The 2 pins were located in different locations and just off about 1/2”; enough so that you couldn’t drill another hole there in place of the original without the 2 overlapping and becoming one big hole. Not only that, but the top half wouldn’t even close down onto the lower, even with the lower gutted and emptied out.

Third, the magazine lock was not located in the same position as the real magazine. It was about 1/4” higher. We’ll have a short video of another M4 that we took a real steal M4 magazine and it would not fit in. It’s part of our weekly you tube videos. And this one happened to be about another M4. It will be published tomorrow, please visit: http://www.youtube.com/user/AirSplatcom

But even more so, for this gun in specific, the mag well, was about 1/4” narrower than the magazine, so even if you could re-notch it, the magazine would have to make it 1/4” slimmer to fit in. This is only true with the model that was seized. In airsoft, we’re only making replicas, we’re not making makeshift fire arms, so manufacturers really have no standard as to what size they make the magazines or mag wells for that matter. So in the video it’s 1/4’” wider than a real M4 mag. But for this gun it’s 1/4” slimmer. 

Fourth, I won’t go too much into the trigger / hammer assembly. Mainly because this is just completely different, it’s not even close to be compatible and I don’t think anyone has gone so far as to say it would be compatible. But I would like to mention that the trigger assembly in the real AR’s we compared to this rifle, were completely different, and it’s highly unlikely that they would somehow fit in, even with major milling and reworking.

These 4 points cover one concern where a real upper is used with this lower.

However, in this specific seizure, if I understand it correctly is stating that the guns as is, even without a real upper, could be modified to chamber and fire a real bullet. Which in this case, I have to say is case is absolutely impossible. The barrel isn’t the right size, there’s no where to “chamber” a round. There’s no hammer / pin to strike the bullet. It’s completely impossible without a complete rework and replacement of the entire internals and barrel, not to mention redoing the entire lower and upper to house these new or modified internals. Making a gun out of paper would probably be more effective and faster, although look less appealing to the eye.

Sorry, I think I ended up writing an essay for you. There are some distributors in the industry that send every one of their airsoft guns to ATF first before they import. Hence, if you ask the ATF HQ, they most likely know that airsoft guns, couldn’t possible be have any sort of these ramifications that are being implied and stated in this seizure.

But sometimes eating your own words is very hard. Sometimes it’s easier to stay the path!

We’ll be sure to continue following your blog, please feel free to let us know if you have any questions. You have a great blog. Feel free to let us know if you’re looking for any support or help. Thanks.

AirSplat.com

I guess that settles it. The parts don’t fit close enough, and even if you could make them fit via a whole lot of modification, they would not hold up to the stresses of firing real ammunition. And we have a corporation, the major player in this field, investigating things on their own and arriving at that conclusion. Sounds like responsible action to me. And even though they disproved this rumor to their own satisfaction, they decided not to run with this model just in case. Because rumors can turn into hassles for business, even when they are utterly untrue. Who needs that? They are even taking it one step further, putting out a video that shows it can’t be done. Just to help squash the rumor. Nice move.

So now the ball is squarely in the BATF’s court: make it work. Get out the hand tools and have at it. Prove your case on both points: that not only is such a modification possible and that a reliable firearm is the result, that it can be done is reasonable time by laymen with only reasonable tools and skills. Otherwise they’ve only hammered a new hobnail into the soles of their jackboots, and managed to give themselves both a black eye and a sore thumb at the same time. And they’ll owe the importer an apology, some sort of certificate of approval, the cost of the materials seized, and some amount of payment for the inconvenience. I’d say court costs too, but there shouldn’t be any; the BATF should be doing the right thing, right now, WITHOUT any pressure from the courts or any legal injunction. Otherwise they ARE a bunch of ham handed jackbooted thugs with an agenda.

And that’s all I have to say about that. Except to tell our overseas readers that ATF and BATF and BATFE are the same folks. The federal government’s Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms enforcement agency renamed themselves the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives. So they have a new acronym, but WTP - We The People - continue to call them whatever we want. Which is often unprintable. And now you see why.

Small Update: Reader B3 is big into Airsoft, and he says it CAN be done. See his comment in the original post. So I guess it comes down to Show Me. I’m looking forward to AirSplat’s video, but like OJ “trying” to put on the bloody glove, I will have to view it with a bit of skepticism until B3, the ATF, or somebody can either put out a video that shows that the conversion works, or publish an official paper detailing how it was done in front of recognized experts. Perhaps all that is needed is a diagram that shows the measurements of the “toy” receiver vs. the real one? Mmmm ... no. Even if it was one for one, as B3 says, I’d want to see proof at the firing range, although I realize that isn’t strictly necessary from the ATF’s perspective. The receiver is the part on this rifle that is designated as the actual firearm, so all they really need to show is that the real parts can fit on and that, with a bit of work, pulling the trigger releases the hammer enough to fire the primer on a chambered blank round. Anything more than that is a parts quality issue, which is not germane here.

Update the II: I think this is a situation where we need government. Not for willy-nilly arbitrary enforcement of “it’s wrong because I say so” feelings, but to act as a fair arbitrator in setting up standards that everyone can live with. Somewhere there has to be a line between what is a toy, what qualifies as a BB gun, what is a replica, and what is a real firearm. That line may have to be drawn right down to the individual components, or at least the receivers. But without such a standard and the widespread awareness of it, problems will continue to occur. If such standards already exist - and I bet they do! - then it’s merely a matter of getting the word out; better awareness should alleviate situations like this one. It is not fair to expect customs agents to have the level of expertise required here to tell the toys from the real things, right down to the individual parts level. They have plenty of other things to do. But parts for toys or replicas could be shipped with some kind of label or certificate that says “meets government standard XYZ.123” and a look at the stuff, a quick check of the rules book, and a measurement or two would be enough. Especially since labeling real firearms receivers as toys would be a form of smuggling! 

Posted by Drew458     on 03/05/2010 at 10:09 AM   
Filed Under: • Government • Guns and Gun Control • Jack Booted Thugs •  
• Comments (9) • Trackbacks(0)  Permalink •  

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