Moral Conundrum
I am a southern California native and I am vehemently against illegal immigration, but I think you should continue the English lessons. You don’t know for sure if she’s illegal and, unless you work for ICE, its not your problem. Giving this woman help with her English is meeting her in her need, which is what Jesus would have us do. You have no idea where your gift is going to travel or how many times it be returned to how many others. Just do it.
Elsie
Posted by cobolpoet
07/26/2007 at 01:16 PM
Keep teaching her English. Hopefully someday soon there will be a bounty on illegals and you can turn them in for some bux. ANd she can teach English back home while she waits out the 10 year moratorium on illegals returning to OUR COUNTRY!
Posted by Fiftycal
07/26/2007 at 03:09 PM
I figure it like this, if she’s trying to learn English in order to be a more productive immigrant then she’s not the kind of illegal we should have a problem with. Like you said, it’s not likely they’ll be deported, all that will come of it is a bit of hassle for them and added mistrust for the system in general. Of course, if she’s been here 10 years and still doesn’t speak English that might be enough to make a person disregard what I said. Still, she’s trying to better herself by learning English, where’s the harm in teaching her? It’s not like you’re helping her get into the country illegally, just be a better immigrant (illegal or otherwise)
Question - why is she here in this country? Is she here to become an American, to join us as over 200 years of immigrants have done? Is she here to get what she can before she goes home? If the former, welcome, help and encourage her to become a citizen. If the latter, drop a dime on her skanky butt and get her out of here.
Personally, one of my Grandfathers could not have come under the current laws. The truth is that he did very well for his adopted country and was always grateful for the opportunity that he received when he came here. He was a solid United States citizen from the day he got here until he died about 70 years later.
So here’s the conundrum: Do I continue to aid and abet a suspected criminal, or do I make the smallest effort to find out the truth and then act accordingly?
If this person was legally here she would have either a green card by now or be a citizen. Either way she would have learned quite a bit of English after 10 years. And if SCOTUS ever gets its collective head out, then that anchor babies thing will come to a crashing halt.
Yes, it’s tougher to put your money where your mouth is when the unknown “they” is reduced to a personalized “her”. It isn’t your job or duty to check her papers or ask her status, but it couldn’t be that tough to start a conversation in that direction that would give you an inkling. And if its a bad inkling, then perhaps it is your duty to call ICE. Not that they would do anything, but at least you tried. With the John Doe thing likely to pass you have little to lose.
Presumption of guilt? Bah. Been here 10 years, only does off the books daycare, can’t speak our language? Sounds more like proof than presumption.
After a half hour of research, I can’t make sense of the immigration laws. I would have thought that they’d say “Mexico: 250,000 per year” but that would be too simple. I did find out that at least 2 out of 3 messcans are here illegally, compared to 1 in 6 for all other countried averaged. So the odds are against her.
I agree with Anonymous #2 and strongly disagree with Anonymous #1 - if his unspoken conclusion is that those conditions justify breaking our laws. Yeah, their country is fucked up. Always has been, even back before Cortez. That’s not my fault, not my responsibility, and not my problem.
Sorry but Jesus said render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars - which means that right now (despite what the President, Congress and ICE say and do) it is against the LAW to be in America illegally. To be a good citizen you must find out and then explain - I morally can’t do this.
Yes, it is hard but think of it this way - if it was another crime - would you even be in this conundrum mode? Sometimes God tests us as to exactly what we do believe and hold true in our heart and soul.
I agree with the off the books daycare & 10 years but still struggling with the language does not indicate a real attempt to even try to be an American citizen at all.
I met a woman who married a soldier (Sweden - don’t ask me how they met) - she learned English by watching Sesame Street with her two children - you would have never known she was not born or raised in America. Learning can be done without even letting others know - my neighbor (African) uses baby books to help his his wife learn the language. Since they have two small children - no one would suspect that she is the one learning to speak English. And because her son started school this fall - she is doing well.
I commend her for reaching out - but she is the one who put you into this dilema by (possibly) coming into our country illegally. And oh btw, adhering to the Constitutional ‘innocent until proven guilty’ does not mean ignoring the crime, not investigating the crime or not acting at all.
That is one of the main reasons we have between 12 to 20 million illegals here in America today - no one wants to step up and call it what it is - a Crime - plain and simple.
Once she learns enough English, I would ask her questions about why she is here and where she came from originally. If she hems and haws, then explain to her, in English, the problem. If she’s from Mexico and thinks the land is theirs, and it was stolen from them, tell her about the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and the Gadsden Purchase.
I’m not sorry to say this...if she’s here illegally, she’s got to go.I think that we need to do sometihing about our immigrant situation. The problem is, I really like Mexicans. I speak Spanish. When you engage them on a one on one basis, and not as an abstract “them”, they are a great, hardworking, warm and friendly people. I love to go to Mexico. I have a lot of business down on the border. I love to go diving in Cancun. I am pretty sure that the maid that cleans my house and the guys that mow my yard are not legal, and I have no inclination to ask. I have done a lot of remodeling in the last several years, and when I pick up day labor at the Home Depot, I don’t ask for green cards.
I really like Mexicans and Mexico and most of them really like Gringos and the United States. There was a good article in the Dallas Morning News about this this morning.
Experiences shape immigration views
08:35 AM CDT on Thursday, July 26, 2007
In pondering any issue, it’s a good idea to examine your own biases.
So with that in mind, let me make a confession:
I like Mexicans.
And I know that influences my feelings about the enormous illegal-immigration issue facing our nation.
Now, if your hackles go up at the mere mention of the word “immigration,” please relax. I’m not trying to convince you of anything today.
I’m just thinking out loud here about the experiences and perceptions that influence me. And if that prompts you to think a bit about what’s behind your positions, well, that’s OK, too.
One thing is certain: We’ve got to find some fresh ways of thinking and talking about all this. Right now we’re stalemated – with anger rising and the border still flowing.
So, yes, I confess. Many of my views flow from a simple starting place: I like Mexicans. And I like Mexico.
Not everyone does.
On a shuttle bus Sunday night at D/FW International Airport, a young woman got on and blurted to the driver that her purse had been stolen in Mexico City. “And,” she lamented as she took her seat, “I got food poisoning.”
That prompted the middle-aged man across from her to launch into a lengthy diatribe. “I’m not surprised,” he said. “Twenty-five years ago I made two trips to Mexico – my first and my last. All in the same trip. That’s a God-forsaken place. It’s the Third World ...”
He went on and on, but you get the idea. My wife patted my leg and whispered, “He’s talking about your homeland.” Then she added, with the hint of a plea, “But don’t say anything.”
It’s not my homeland, of course, just a place I have come to love. And I had already decided there was nothing I could say in a few words to make this fellow understand what I have experienced there – the warmth and beauty and kindness and sophistication and complexity and ... and ... and ...
But if I had to guess, I’d bet that fellow and I come down very differently on the immigration issue.
Let me quickly say that my position, like most people’s, is that we do have a huge, huge problem that must be fixed. But I don’t view it with the hair-on-fire alarm that so many others do.
Yes, we have a problem. But I don’t think our culture, language or national sovereignty are in danger. In fact, I think the vast majority of illegal immigrants work hard and contribute greatly to our nation.
But I have to ask myself: Would I feel the same way about 12 million illegal immigrants pouring in here from Tonga or Tibet?
Perhaps not.
Or let me take it a step further: Would I feel the same about 12 million French journalists sneaking in here to do my job at half the pay?
My remaining hair would surely be on fire.
The truth is that we all come to the immigration debate with so many different life experiences driving our positions.
An acquaintance – a smart, open-minded person – confessed to me recently that she grows more and more resentful of the Spanish-language billboards all over town.
“Spanish-only signage is a strong statement that I am the one who is going to have to change,” she said in an e-mail. And, she said, it just seems rude, like whispering in public.
As we talked more, it turns out that her East Dallas neighborhood has also undergone big changes she attributes to the Hispanic influx – including all-night parties, random gunfire and gang activity.
That forced me to realize that my life has been largely unaffected by the immigration wave – except for things of my choosing.
I enjoy finding the newest autentico taco stand. I love sweet agua fresca drinks from my favorite fruteria. And a highlight of my week is putting my limited Spanish to use teaching English to a roomful of wonderful, eager adults.
In short, my life has been enriched by the cultural changes all around us. But I owe it to others to listen to their different experiences as well.
With a little more listening, maybe we can find our way to some common ground – and a common-sense solution.
This is a touchy subject. Most folks will agree (not all) that it’s not really a race issue. Here in East Texas, we have a lot of illegals and we know it.
We have laws on immigration already in place. We need the ones we have enforced before coming up with something new. As far as amnesty goes, I’m sorry, if you’re here illegally...then you’re here illegally with all that implies no matter how moral, Christian, or how law abiding. I think that maybe we could work out some way to get these people sponsors and keep the good ones. However, in your case, Mr. Christian, it’s gone a little beyond that. She’s been here for 10 years does not speak English and is moving East to be near her family? This may be entirely true, but if she’s been here for that long and does not speak any English, that is highly unlikely and just when did she find out that her family was somewhere east of Los Angeles? I’m sorry, my friend, but it sounds to me like maybe she’s well-versed enough to play the sympathy angle. She would have learned that much in East L.A.
I would not presume to tell or suggest anything to you in your situation. I will, however, quote someone else, “Trust, but verify. . .”
Dude… i HATE it when y’all make me think after taking pain meds… :(
Since I’m not Christian, I’ll ignore the teachings of Christ on this.
For myself, a LOT would depend on what I saw of the person. Is she genuinely trying to better herself, and contribute more to society? If so, then I would leave well-enough alone and keep teaching. If she’s NOT trying to contribute, then all bets are off…
I understand the stance some are taking: if she hasn’t learned english in 10 years, she’s probably illegal. And illegal is illegal, regardless of circumstances. However, I know legal emmigrants that have been here for ages that barely have any english. And, while avoiding the system to come to this country is wrong, I can understand a aren’t trying to do the best for their children, regardless of what the law says…
Posted by Strings
07/27/2007 at 02:25 AM
Why not simply solve the problem?
1) Continue teaching English, along with American History and our systems of government.
2) Ask her outright - have you started the process to legally immigrate?
3) If So - good. If Not - Get it started NOW.I cannot but think that a person who makes a good faith effort - even after breaking the rules - to “come clean” will be a higher priority than those who really should be deported (criminals, deadbeats, on-the-lams, etc...) You get the point.
I repeat: Solve the problem.
Well for every - good, hardworking, trying Mexican (or whatever) illegal I can tell you stories of those that aren’t - what disgusted me, is that those people I met were here for free medical care and still thought nothing of stealing whatever, whenever they could - gratitude NOT. So who wins - and that is what it comes down to. Forget Ms Mexican that Mr Christian met - and take it on the reality of America.
We are suppose to be a country of Laws - and right now if she is in the country illegally - she is breaking the law (sorry actually several) and we are paying for it. If only the higher medical costs because she and her other illegal family members are using the ER as a doctor, oh and education because little Jose and Maria are attending the local public school sans property tax payments. . .And is Manuel driving on a fake license thereby jeopardizing everyone on the road? Do you not see, it is not a single thing, a simple right and wrong - it is a proportional problem that reaches into so many areas - which we the working, law abiding citizens are paying for.
And finally - since the left screeds on and on about International Law and toeing the line as the ‘rest’ of the World does - take a look at their laws on ‘illegal’ immigrants - Mexico is among one of the harshest - as are their voting requirements.
Yes it sounds awful to pack ‘em off and send them home - but that is the Law. And I still question anyone as to how if they are striving to make a better life, instanteously after committing a crime to cross our border, after doing almost nothing it appears to make their own country a better place? To me, that does not compute and is not logical at all.
There is a vast middle ground between shooting on sight and welcoming any and all - no matter how they get here. Our ‘nation of immigrants’ was built on requirements (after it became a Nation) and a limit until - this free for all began in the 1960s - just because it’s been allowed to go ignored and our politicians chose to pander to everyone and anyone (not even American citizens) for a ‘vote’ does not make it right or the best thing for America.
Sad yes but criminals and their enablers have caused us to reach this point - I might go as far as those who have no ‘criminal’ record and/or served/serving in the military and are learning the language and other steps to citizenship - be accorded a fast track back to America and citizenship - all others go home and get in the back of the line.
I bet if you start enforcing - you will see the ‘don’t want to be a citizen, just want a free entitlement/riders’ leave and not come back (Don’t forget when Eisenhower started Operation Wetback - when the program had deported 500 illegals and started moving into states other than CA and AZ - 800 illegals chose to leave on their own). Do the math - it would work again. All ICE has to do is try it.
I am sorry, Mr Christian, I know it is a hard decision, I hate to put things this way, HOWEVER; The law IS the law. I know that your feelings of Christian charity say ‘help as much as possible’ and your morals are arguing the other way, but the bible, and the law agree on this.
“render unto Caesar” is pretty specific, as are the laws of the land. I know it isn’t the easiest thing to do, BUT being a moral person and a Christian is never the easiest thing to do.
I think it would be best, as long as you don’t know, to just not worry about her status, however, the moment she lets it slip, or confides in you, I would have to give her warning, then tell the authorities.
The ignore it, even if you know thing is what is destroying the country. Even ignoring the ‘hard working and honest ones who just came to make a better life’ is bad, because this is the kind of attitude that that is slapping us across the face, Mr Macker. The ‘bad’ ones are using the ‘good’ ones for financing, information, and places to stay until they get established.
There is no ‘innocent’ illegal. Even if they are really honest. Mr. A may be a good hard working guy who wants to have a better life, and his friend Mr B may be equally good, but what about cousin C who has no sense of responsibility? Then we get to the old shampoo commercial mode; and he tells 2 friends, and they tell 2 friends, and so on, and so on, then we get something like MS13 running around playing little mafia…
Anyhow. sorry about the ramble, but if they were truly honest, Why didn’t they do it the right way?Blabbing on due to another 12 hour shift,
BillMr. Christian,
I think that your own discomfort is telling you a great deal about what you need to do. I think that one makes a great mistake when he adopts another person’s own self-made problems.
You are doing a great service teaching English, but he person you are teaching is here illegally--that makes her a criminal, no?? People just like her are part of the problem that is crushing our country.
Posted by Gabby
07/27/2007 at 11:16 AM
Folks - while I agree with the fact that the person in question IS breaking the law, the law is SUPPOSED to be tempered by some modicum of mercy as well. If the person wwe are discussing is trying to “get right” - then that has one aspect.
If, however, they have no interest in becoming a citizen, no interest in - as I describe - “getting right” - then the repercussion of that should also be clear.
If y’all are willin’ ta row, welcome to the boat. If ya ain’t, well, hope yer kin swim.
I sell auto parts since retiring from the military. Many of my Hispanic customers speak no English at all. I don’t know if they’re here legally or not and I’m forbidden by my employer from asking. But, as far as customers go, they’re always polite and cordial. They most always pay cash and don’t buy frivolously. They know what they need and have great patience when trying to communicate with me. Their children are always well behaved and the parents have a tight reign on them. They are literally a pleasure to serve. Unfortunately, I can’t say that for the majority of “white folks” who we have for customers. They’re rude and arrogant. They don’t know the difference between a 4 and 6 cylinder engine but it’s your fault they gave you the wrong information on their vehicle.
My hope is that these customers of mine are Legal because they’re decent hard working folks. If they’re here illegally, they need to leave and come back legally. I think they would make outstanding citizens but they have to make things right first. It’s not right to do wrong to do right.
It’s not so simple when you actually stop and think about it. Not philosophically, not in practical terms. If you place your emphasis purely on the law, it is obvious that you will eliminate many otherwise good people who would make good contributions to our society. If you accept anything that makes its way over the border, you’ve got a lot of parasites here to make a quick buck - or worse. One obvious area to explore is how much the people in question really want to be U.S. citizens.
That is an interesting question because even some whose families have been here since California was part of Mexico seem to want to separate the southwest from the rest of the United States. They represent a proud and solid culture that refuses to integrate into our society (and in Southern California, Hispanic culture is part of your life, even if your family is purely Nordic). For over 150 years, there have been parts of Los Angeles where English has never been the main language. When the demonstrations for immigration reform started about a year ago, the Mexican flag was regularly flown over the American flag. That is a major problem. If they don’t want to be Americans, I don’t want them here, even if they are native born. That includes the current Mayor of Los Angeles, Antonio Villaregosa.
Last thought - within my family and many of their friends, I’m considered an arch conservative. My Mother (born in Ireland, naturalized with her Father in 1927) is a diehard Democrat and one of my cousins is literally a Hollywood Moonbat. When it comes to immigration though, they are the one’s who want all illegal immigrants rounded up and deported at any cost and who are willing to post machine guns at the border to shoot without warning anyone who tries to sneak over. Go figure.
Once one determines another is illegally here in the U. S., one must do something. As a responsible citizen, you really have to find out and do something.
That something could be seeing what it would take to adjust her (and her family’s) status so she can live here legally. Yes, it can be done, especially if they have established themselves.
Good luck with that fine line between rendering to God and rendering to Ceasar.
Keep teaching. We want the border closed to further illegals. If they would just do this, right now, we could assimilate most of those already here in a decade or two, while we allow more entrants at a level we, not they, decide. We don’t want to be inhumane. We aren’t going to expel millions of people. Like it or not, that’s not going to happen. We simply want to exercise our sovereignty and regulate the number of entries for the good of the whole nation. We have a perfectly legitimate right to do this. But let’s be decent to those already here.
Posted by Curly
07/27/2007 at 11:17 PM
Welcome to the conundrum that those of us living ON the border have been dealing with for 30 years. I’ve been invited to baby showers for anchor babies, fed and clothed wetbacks walking through, and modified my English with a Spanish accent. I’m very angry at all of our politicians for neglecting border security enforcement, but the illegal aliens are here, and I will continue to offer compassion. The government’s job is to enforce the law.
Posted by Veritas Regina
07/27/2007 at 11:25 PM
Its not a family trait,
Its nothing that you ate,
And it doesn’t come from skating with Holy rollers.
Its an early warning sign,
To keep your life in line,
But its so hard to define NEVERMIND!
Its just a Spirit thing,
Its just a Holy nodge,
Its like a Circuit Judge in the Brain.
Its just a Spirit thing,
Its there to guard your heart,
Its just a little hard to explain.
It pushes when you quit,
It smells a counterfiet
Sometimes it acts a bit like a teleprompter.
When Its teleprompting you,
I pray you let it through,
He’ll help you with the how,
But for now,
Its just a Spirit thing,
Its just a Holy nudge,
Its like a Circuit Judge in the Brain.
Its just a Spirit thing,
Its there to guard your heart,
Its just a Little hard to explain.Slight adaptation, yes.
You have the means to find out now, language barrier or not, there are simple means to learn. You know people who speak better spanish. If you suspected she was a murderer, or that her children were sexual abuse victims would you sit on your thumbs? I hope not.
Aren’t we still a nation of laws?BTW a Moral conundrum is seeing a state vehicle in a bad crash, and upon investigating find that the passenger, a convicted criminal on his way to be executed is trapped in the vehicle which has burst into flames. The guy murdered and tortured people you know.
Do you save his life, or go for marsh mallows?Marshmallows Jeremy. Yes, I am a callous bastard at times.
Curly, Assimilating them would be no problem, except for the fact that too many of them will use the law to bring in their cousins, aunts, uncles, 3rd cousin’s uncle twice removed, etc.
I hate moral conundrums, but then I look at the big picture. Everyone who swam across the Rio Grande, came in back of a truck, or in the trunk of a car are, to put it bluntly, criminals.
Yes, the law should be dealt with mercy, but mercy has it’s limits. 20 million people invading our country? Well outside of tolerances.
My vote? Send them ALL back to Mexico, and then let them come back one by one, filling in the proper paperwork and getting in line.
If I was to enter anyone here’s house, set up housekeeping, eat your food, use your toothbrush, however, I was to get a job, and give you bare minimum that I could get away with, sending the rest somewhere else, meanwhile yelling “I deserve to live here!” Then run around screaming “I deserve to live here” and burning your picture. Could I ask for the same “constitutional rights” of a homeowner? Would you be morally obligated to give them to me? What if I kept the house clean? Mowed your lawn? Cooked delicious dinners?
I’m a good uninvited house guest! I never break the house rules! I just demand equal rights! Oh look, y wife had a child! Now do I deserve a key to the house? What about the right, since, my child is now allowed to be here permanently, to begin the process of using your credit cards? Your insurance?
This is basically what is happening, but, why aren’t we seeing this? People are pointing out that they are just trying to get out of their abject poverty and corrupt government! I’m sorry, I did not sit by and watch this happen to their country, THEY DID! They made their beds. If they want a different sheet, they should remake it, not hop into mine! If they want to get into my country, they should do it the right way, otherwise, they should fix theirs. If they can get a million immigrants to march for their ‘right’ to be here, why can’t they get a million to rise up against their government and fix it? Because we won’t shoot them in the streets like dogs. We have a shit load of liberals to get up and stand up behind them.
They are running from their problems, and we are basically saying “Come on over, amigo! we have your solution! Free hospitals, schools, and welfare for all of you!”
Geez, this from a bunch of people who wouldn’t give allowance to their kids unless they do their chores, then advise them to face their problems directly.
Sorry about the rant.. Been up for 23 hours.
But, think about it.
BillMr. Christian, you are really in a “moral conundrum” and I don’t wish to trade places with you. I read all the comments, I find some are idiotic, some are smart, some are off-topic but mostly, I think the comments are biased by the writer’s personal experiences.
“I hate Mexicans, turn the Wetback in” or “Mexicans are nice people, teach her English”.
Since I am not a commie, I would not go on snitch on her anonymously - that’s real cowardice. As a Christian, I would not honor Judas an turn her in for profit either - that’s base. As a law-abiding citizen, I would be tempted to drag her into the next Police Station and have her deported, but as I said before, I’m not a commie.In my opinion, you are doing, what a christian and real American would do:
Helping your neighborNow, to be honest, I personally would really have trouble helping my neighbor if:
I suspected her to an Al-Quaida operative
I suspected her to support the Clintons
I suspected her to be involved in a pornography ring
I suspected her to sell drugsIf my suspicions were strong enough, I would make a Citizen’s Arrest - yes, supporting Bill is a crime
Mr. Christian,
I’m not gonna bother reading the voluminous replies. Here’s my two-cents worth.
1) You are obligated to report her if you believe she is illegal. Sad.
2) Wouldn’t matter if the Gov’t wasn’t doing unConstitutional things like having anything to do with welfare…Does anyone really believe that if the Federal Gov’t wasn’t stealing funds from law-abiding citizens and giving such funds to illegal aliens that this would be a problem? If the Fed wasn’t doing this, most aliens would have no incentive to come here.
Those that still came here, wouldn’t be a burden on the public because they couldn’t claim benefits. If she were here under those conditions, I’d gladly help her. What’s making the illegal alien thing an issue is that we give illegals benefits that, at best, should be reserved for citizens.
The bottom line is that we need to level the playing field. Gringo, move to Mexico and see how Mexican law treats you.
07/28/2007 at 11:06 AM
