Liberal, Conservative, what’s the difference?

 

1. Alright, Here we go AGAIN.

   However much I would like to agree with certain sentiments in the thing, it gets much wrong.

   For instance, it pretty much declares that government IS (note the certain, nonnegotiable IS) Corrupt, Cruel, etc.

   Now, perhaps it means that in the fact that, even in the most just and upright governments, there are elements of those things (which would be true).

   However, if it means that government in and of itself is corrupt and cruel by its very nature, then it is wrong. Dead Wrong.

   Government in and of itself, by its very nature, is- if anything- organized. Perhaps poorly, but it is organized (because, if it wasn’t at all, it wouldn’t be a government, would it?).

   Government has the CAPABILITY to be cruel, corrupt, incompetent, etc. It also has the CAPABILITY to be honest, upright, and (GASP!) efficient. And it also has the capability to be all of these things simultaneously to varying degrees.

   It, like pretty much everything else, is only the sum of its parts (ie: don’t be surprised to have a sewer when there are people like Don Young, Dingy Harry, Pelosi, and Co).

   The underlying problems with government as a whole is threefold:

   1, Even when well-meaning, it is often inefficient and counterproductive (for instance, I don’t think any of us would honestly argue that the New Deal was intended to be damaging, even though it certainly was).

   2. It wields a considerable amount of power over the individual, and it can readily be abused in ways both large and small.

   3. It is difficult to hold accountable, with a byzantine system that distributes tax dollars to causes that many taxpayers would never want their money to go.

   As such, it is imperfect, and the idea of giving it any more room to grow is something that is rightly anathema to the Conservative cause.

   But I LOVE how you dropped in the little “Liberal Fascist Moonbats.” Now, many of them are certainly deserving of that label. However, many others are not, and they often do genuinely believe in doing good (even if they are so wrong that it hurt’s ones’ head).

   In addition, very few of them are Fascists. Some are, certainly, but most are not. Why? Because Fascism (unlike what you appear to think) is not just a feel-good curse term to be bandied about without cause (that is why so few people take it seriously anymore).

   Fascism is a VERY specific ideology that is Socialist, Authoritarian, Nationalist, Statist, and (as a side order) often Pagan, Rascist, and Eugenic in nature.

   Say what you will, but very few Liberals, even the truly hurtful and sickening ones (Pelosi, Reid, Nagin, etc) Fall under that list. Corrupt? Yes. But one can be evil without being Fascist.

   Apparently, this is yet another thing you haven’t done your homework on.

   Which reminds me:

   I have a call from one Tommy Atkins for you. He is wondering when you are actually going to drop the classless and arrogant act you are doing and apologize to him and the millions of his friends who you owe so much to.

   Posted by Turtler       12/28/2008  at  10:33 PM  



2. Gee whiz, where do I start?

   Let’s start with:

   I have a call from one Tommy Atkins for you. He is wondering when you are actually going to drop the classless and arrogant act you are doing and apologize to him and the millions of his friends who you owe so much to.

   I’ll call you on that. Who is ‘Tommy Atkins’? When did he/she/it/them wonder anything about me? (I might say that YOU owe so much to them, far more than I do, I served, did you?)

   And as for classless, I thought egalitarianism was the goal?

   Secondly:

   But I LOVE how you dropped in the little “Liberal Fascist Moonbats.” Now, many of them are certainly deserving of that label. However, many others are not, and they often do genuinely believe in doing good (even if they are so wrong that it hurt’s ones’ head).

   In addition, very few of them are Fascists. Some are, certainly, but most are not. Why? Because Fascism (unlike what you appear to think) is not just a feel-good curse term to be bandied about without cause (that is why so few people take it seriously anymore).

   First thing. Liberals are the ones who do ‘group politics’. Until liberals eschew such group politics, I’ll be ‘liberal’ in spreading the blame and nasty names. According to the Obamessiah, we are NOT a nation of individuals. In other words, you can’t have it both ways. You are either an individual FIRST, or part of a group FIRST.

   As for the ‘fascism’ part, I have to assume you are ignorant and haven’t read Jonah Goldberg’s book “Liberal Fascism”. Funny title actually, since it is redundant. We can follow the fascism of liberals just by observing the reaction of the [liberal] homosexuals in response to the passage of Proposition 8 in Kalifornia. I won’t spoil the Christmas present. You’ll just have to do a Google search yourself.

   Posted by Christopher       01/01/2009  at  01:20 AM  



3. I’ll call you on that. Who is ‘Tommy Atkins’?

   Normally, I would tell you. However, since you are apparently inexperienced in the matter of actual historical RESEARCH, I will graciously allow you the chance to use this oppertunity to hone your skill in that area.

   Google it.

   then did he/she/it/them wonder anything about me?

   Probably since you decided to feed your ego by making historically inaccurate and outright offensive remarks and THEN trying in a half-arsed fashion to cover yourself on that issue rather then coming clean and apologizing.

   (I might say that YOU owe so much to them, far more than I do, I served, did you?)

   Where do I start with this?

   A. If I had the option of serving, I WOULD. Unfortunately, for the moment- and barring a drastic change in my medicinal condition- I do not have such a thing.

   B. I particularly love how you pull the “Military Card” in order to cover up your classless and outright slanderous actions towards fellow veterans. To this pathetic attempt to find an “easy out” card, all I can say is that John Kerry, George Blake, Benedict Arnold, Phillipe Petain, and (dare I say it?) Adolph Hitler all served in the military. Does that excuse them for everything they did afterward? Does it excuse the swine who wrote “The Winter Soldier” for their disgusting betrayals?

   Think about it.

   And as for classless, I thought egalitarianism was the goal?

   Perhaps for Communists or Socialists (after the whole bloody “class war” tripe that is oh-so-necessary). But one would forgive me if they were invoking an entirely different type of classlessness then what you exhibited.

   Liberals are the ones who do ‘group politics’

   Not all who do so are Liberals, and not all Liberals (though, granted, the vast majority of them do, as well as all their major organizations) do so. For instance: do you remember our dear friends the Islamists (who hardly could be described as “Liberal” by any definition of the word; even by kooks like Cynthia McKinney & Co) like to literally divide the world into “groups” (Believers VS Nonbelievers)?

   Until liberals eschew such group politics, I’ll be ‘liberal’ in spreading the blame and nasty names

   Fair enough, until you decide to try and use an actual word with an actual meaning as some sort of political mudball. In that event, I intend to make you or anyone who does so look like a fool. As I mentioned before, it is thanks to people using such words in such an ignorant manner that the very word Fascist has become a joke, rather then a concrete ideology that actually existed. And because it is so bastardized that it has become a joke, we forget that such a word represented- and still represents- an ideology that was- and is- a grave threat to the sacrifices of those who gave their all in things like that “crock” WWI, the Second World War, and the Cold War.

   In addition, do you not realize the hypocrisy of your standard? While I respectfully disagree with Mr. Goldberg and his book (and YES, I have actually read it many times over), I at least do not flinch from admitting when he is right. On the other hand, you, while trumpeting him as THE expert on the history of Fascism, nevertheless insult the very purpose towards which he wrote the book in the first place (which, if you do not remember, was to explicitly define Fascism as a concrete thing and to trace its history)!

   So who is the fool here?

   According to the Obamessiah, we are NOT a nation of individuals. In other words, you can’t have it both ways. You are either an individual FIRST, or part of a group FIRST.

   And pray tell me why you are saying this? This is one of the few times that I would actually AGREE with you on this. My quarrel is you falling into the very same trap that many on the Left have fallen into by labeling their enemies- be they Bush, Reagan, Lieberman, FOX etc- as not merely mistaken but as EVIL.

   Forgive me if I do not feel obliged to be a hypocrite by joining you in lowering yourself to their level.

   As for the ‘fascism’ part, I have to assume you are ignorant and haven’t read Jonah Goldberg’s book “Liberal Fascism”

   And I will assume you have memory difficulties. 

   I have mentioned many times over that I have indeed mentioned Mr. Goldberg’s book, and have found it a noble but wanting effort with several glaring flaws that undermine the strength of his book.

   For one, he doesn’t seem to have studied WWI America in great detail, for he seems to mistake the US’s (often ill-advised and harmful, I will add) emergency wartime laws for permanent measures and further discounts the fact that the US and other equally Democratic nations have had before and since.

   I do believe that Garry Sheffield noted that “one of the paradoxes of total war in the twentieth century is that, much as de Tocqueville predicted, Liberal Democratic states (in the traditional sense, read: Modern Republics as exist in the US, Britain, France, etc) have had to adopt many of the trappings of authoritarian states in order to defend their values against ideological enemies.” And it happened even BEFORE the twenthieth century in the US. Remember Lincoln, the Great Emancipator? His wartime government was by FAR more repressive and atuhoritarian then ANYTHING we had during WWI. But he is RIGHTFULLY not placed amongst the ranks of Franco, Stalin, Hitler, Lenin, Mao, etc. Why? Because he realized that- regardless of whatever semi-authoritarian reforms are necessary while fighting in a total war- such measures are BY DEFINITION temporary. In addition, while distressing over the rather thin- by contemporary standards at least- American measures, he fails to note the far larger, longer, and severe contemporaries in Germany and Austria-Hungary, which have far more direct continuation with the Third Reich then Wilsonite America in WWI (it is not a coincidence that up to 80% of the WWI German censors were rehired by the new regime by 1935).

   However, your apparent memory issues manifest not only in failing to remember that, but also by Mr. Goldberg’s stern points that the term Fascist not be bandied about without good cause. Perhaps that merely slipped your mind?

   Funny title actually, since it is redundant

   Obviously, you have never lived in California before, or even had much actual contact with them on a personal basis. I have, since I have no choice in the matter. And I HAVE met many of their worst (indeed, I actually put a few in the hospital after they attempted to attack me as a Homophobe in the aftermath of Prop 8), but I have also had to deal with many who are some of the closest people in the world to me (one cannot easily sever onself from friends and family, right?), and while I refuse to capitulate on my ideals, we somehow are able to co-exist as reasonable people with strong differences of opinion.

   Imagine that. How shocking and unthinkable. Some of us actually realize that everyone is human, be they Mao or Mother Theresa.

   We can follow the fascism of liberals just by observing the reaction of the [liberal] homosexuals in response to the passage of Proposition 8 in Kalifornia. I won’t spoil the Christmas present. You’ll just have to do a Google search yourself.

   Sorry, but I was very well acquainted with the Prop 8 Backlash before Thanksgiving, and I KNOW what it was like personally. Why? Because I, Mr. Ohio, actually experienced it FIRSTHAND. I supported Prop 8. Not because I oppose Gay Marraige- just the opposite- but because I am against the government imposing its will on the religious (you know, kind of like Hitler’s “Positive Christianity?) without their consent. And,in spite of arguing on that, I was indeed targeted as part of the backlash, which is why I had to disable four militant Prop 8 opponents with a crowbar to the face and send a fifth straight to the slammer.

   In this particular incident, two of the “unfortunate” fools (as I learned later during the case) were gay. One was a Lesbian. But, of the other two “Fascist” Homosexuals”, both were straight.

   But, here is the thing: one of the reasons I was able to defeat them was because our dear “friends” attempted to attack my house during Barbecue night. For their trouble, they were immediately set upon by myself and seven others. I am a male, straight, diehard Neocon (in case I haven’t clarified that). But what of the other seven? Sexually, four were straight, two homosexual, one just plain confused. Politically, three Conservatives, three Liberals, and one Centrist.

   And that was not counting the couple of vandals, the ill-fated burgler, and the small-scale harassment.
   And yet you act in a self-righteous fashion and try to tell ME, from the quaint state of Ohio, what the Prop 8 backlash was like! Thank you very much, but I already know.

   Indeed, I know the issue (firsthand, remember!) to tell you that the roving thugs were not Fascist, nor were they entirely gay. Indeed, the Prop 8 thugs probably had roughly equal Homosexuals and Non-Homosexuals in their ranks. As for the Fascist allegations, let me tell you this: that band of idiots certainly did not support the ideals of Hitler, Mussolini, Salazar, or Franco. Hell, I would be surprised if they even KNEW who any of those are. The main thing they were were Anti-"Breeder" (but not in any organized or comprehensive fashion like the Reich was Anti-Slav or Anti-Jew,). Hell, I am willing to bet that up to a third of those “Fascist Gays” were neither, but just plain thugs who were on the prowl.

   But those facts do not appear to matter to you, only your almighty “Opinion” does. And, for that opinion, you see no need to do research, no need to quantify anything, and no need to accept the blame when you screw up. And, in doing so, you have not only insulted me, be hypocritical, and (word of all) disrespectful of millions who gave their lives to allow you to sprout off without thinking.

   And yet YOU are the one who has done nothing wrong. Pitiful.

   Happy New Year.

   Posted by Turtler       01/01/2009  at  04:24 AM  



4. Do you know what’s funny? I posted this a @2AM on New Year’s Day and you responded about three hours later.

   Methinks you need a life. Go get laid.

   I get laid regularly, but then, I have a wife. It’s her job… (she’d beat me if she saw this!)

   Oh yes, I spent four years in Kalifornia. Back then, they were seriously discussing lowering the speed limit to save insects. Back then, some idiot shot up a McDonald’s. Then they called for more gun control.
   Weird.

   Kalifornia, I’m not sure it’s even a nice place to visit anymore.

   Posted by Christopher       01/01/2009  at  06:15 AM  



5. Ladies and gentlemen, can you say “dodging the questions?”

   Good.t

   Posted by Turtler       01/01/2009  at  07:00 AM  

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