Who will go in to bat for crime’s victims? A question from a liberal? Yup. Wonder of wonde
on 12/16/2009 at 11:42 AM
It may be just to jail a man who beats up a burglar…
I do not accept the premise of the headline. Of course it is unjust to jail the victim.
In fact, I think the victim didn’t go far enough. One of my favorite novels is Robert A. Heinlein’s Time Enough for Love. In it, Lazarus Long describes what I think the proper reaction should be to such thuggery:
“…For instance, did I mention the time Joe decapitated a man?”
“Not much to it and it wasn’t important to the story. This young blood tried to share the wealth one night by sticking them up. Llita had J.A. in her right arm, nursing him or about to, and couldn’t reach the gun she kept at the cashbox; she couldn’t fight and was bright enough not to try against those odds. I suppose this dude didn’t know that Joe had simply stepped out of sight.
“Just as this free-lance socialist was gathering up their day’s receipts, Joe lets him have it, with a cleaver. Curtain. The only notable thing about it was that Joe acted so quickly and correctly in the crunch, for I feel sure that the only fighting that he had ever tried was that which I forced on him in the ‘Libby.’ Joe did everything else properly, too—finished taking the head off, threw the body into the street for his friends to take away if he had any, for the scavengers to remove if not— then displayed the head in front of the shop on a spike meant for such purpose. Then he closed his shutters and cleaned up the mess—then may have taken time to throw up; Joe was a gentle soul. But it’s seven to two that Llita did not throw up.
“The city’s committee for public safety voted Joe the usual reward, and the Street committee passed the hat and added to it; a cleaver against a gun rated special notice. Good advertising for Estelle’s Kitchen but not important otherwise, save that the kids could use that money–helped pay the mortgage, no doubt, and wound up in my pocket. But I wouldn’t have heard of this minor dustup had I not been in New Canaveral and happened to stop by Estelle’s Kitchen when the real head was removed—flies, you know—and the plastic trophy head custom required Joe to display was substituted for it by the Street committee.
Now this is a custom I’d really love to see started.
The law decided that it is one thing to strike when you are being struck; it is quite another to chase your attacker down the street and beat him senseless. Morally, as well as legally, the distinction looks clear. Hussein’s family were no longer in danger, and neither was he, when the cricket bat came down on Salem’s head. Justice must be measured by the thump of a gavel, not by the thwack of willow on skull.
So why, then, if law and morality agree, does this case cause such consternation?
I think I can answer this one.
Law and morality appear to agree, but it is only an appearance.
Three masked men break into your home. They tie up your family and threaten to kill you and your children. They force you to crawl from room to room, as they rob you and ransack your house.
thus,
There is the absolute fear and incandescent rage of the victim, which can spill over into violence.
As well it should.
You three men who broke into someone’s home created that “incandescent rage”. That’s your baby, and no one else’s. If you had any sense at all, you knew it was a possibility, yet you chose to break in anyway.
If the circumstances allow him to turn the tables, and use that “incandescent rage” that you created against you, that is not his fault, nor is it his responsibility. If you failed to get out of the blast radius of the bomb you set… well, it must suck to be you, huh?
It seems to me that this would be a case where the robbers themselves would be tried for the very assault against them, in the same way you are charged with murder if the cops shoot your partner as you’re holding up a liquor store.
I couldn’t say it better OGF.. If you or a member of your gang are injured in the commission or the getaway from a crime, any bodily harm or death should be lain in the hands of the perpetrator of the crime. In this case, Salem’s. He should be on the stocks being charged for his own injuries, since they were a consequence of his own actions.
There should be no rules of engagement for a burglary.
It should simply be: If you cross this threshold uninvited, you have forfeited your life to the owner of the house. If you escape death or debilitating injury, then your ass belongs to the state.
If liberals live there, don’t worry about it, as you are obviously from a broken family with a childhood of cruelty with an alcoholic parent(s) or the man has held you down because of your race or color, take what you want. If you should hurt yourself, feel free to sue us. We feel your struggle/pain/suffering!Thanks for the Heinlein c&p Christopher. Best Writer Ever. The man had his ducks in a row, marching with military precision.
Just a thought or 2.
BillNow I have to find and rererereread all those books..
GOF ...VERY well put. As usual.
Christopher and Bill ...
re.Heinlein. Is that Robert Heinlein, the science fiction writer? Or have I got it confused. If it’s the same one, which book in particular are you guys recommending?I remember Christopher once mentioning the name to me and in fact I think (?) Drew once mentioned him.
whoops ... I just spotted the title in Christopher’s comment. Don’t know how I missed it first time around.
Robert A. Heinlein’s Time Enough for Love
Just bought this one from AMZN. better late then never.
The problem is we do not have all the details of the incident - we do not know what was said, what was done (do not forget there was a teenage daughter) - so what sent the rage over the top is not known to most everyone.
The other problem is that this criminal had a record (50 arrests, if I remember from the first article) - thus the victim in this case might have (rightly, it seems) to have decided that the criminal justice system might not actually do the justice deserved for this whole crime spree.
And yes - Heinlein is an interesting read (although I’ve only read a couple compared to my husband’s entire collection read, reread, rereread status.
I agree Peiper, Better late than never. I started reading Heinlein in the 80’s when a girlfriend gave me “The fourth column” as a present. Then I was hooked. I have read everything available at least 3 times, and after I lost my library, have recollected and rerereread them. It is hard to describe the man’s style, but the closest I think I can get is Social Commentary SciFi with a bit of Comedy. But, I digress.
Wardmama, The thing is, he didn’t die, and was able to go to court to stand for his crime. I don’t think the crime of battering the criminal should enter the equation. I would have been ‘over the top’ the moment these ass hats came into my house. In my opinion, that is the eay it should be. Anything these people would have done/said would have just feed the fires of my wrath further. If it built to the level where I chased them down the street with a cricket bat, so be it.
If you feed a steam engine too much fuel, you will be lucky not to get killed when it finally explodes in your face. Don’t blame the steam engine, just be happy if you don’t die.
Just a thought,
BillI missed that criminal recidivist scum ‘beaten to brain damage’ was released in two weeks (ok, I admit, I must read every word and not skim articles any more) - What bs - and then arrested again for fraud.
Wow - If I had the money - I’d be paying for lawyers to appeal this jailing of the victim to every court out there. What the liberal loons don’t realize - is that every time the scum gets a pass and the victim either gets completely forgotten or punished - it isn’t going to stop the victims - it is going to up the response - from calling 911 (which doesn’t do much anymore), to civil suits against the criminals (see Fred Goldman on how well that works out) and finally to retaliation from the victims.
I think it really is because liberals have no real clue as to how the World works and think and react simply on their own emo feel good kumbyah bs. People are simply higher order animals - yes we can learn but we still go ‘with the gut’ (emos to those fools who have educated themselves out of reality) - most can be civilized to the point of moderate behavior - but like the liberal left fools who have become pie-in-the-sky morons - there is a group of people who don’t give a damn about others (predators) and thanks to the emo left - these dangerous people are getting a pass to keep on keeping on.
And it has gone on since forever (I can remember my father refusing to do somethings - ‘It will just come back to destroy me’ - and that was in the 60s!) - they are actually sending us faster and faster back into anarchy and vigilantism by their bending over backward to secure the ‘rights’ of completely worthless and non-productive peoples who 1) if they had stayed in the own countries would have a)starved to death, b)died of disease or c)possibly raised up into a rebellion to make it better - instead come to wealthier countries to loll around on the dole and scamming off more and more money and benefits and creating a whole new class of do-nothing scammers and/or become criminals for ‘something to do’. Added to the countries own population of do-nothing layabouts - they take down the peace, security and economies of the country.
It is so damn simple - that I am sick and tired of those idiots and fools who continue to elect the buffoons and wish that they would stop living in lala land and get with the program - some people are just plain bad/evil/dangerous and must be stoppedand if they aren’t going to do - some people out there have no problem doing it themselves - and it is what made America the greatest country in the World.
And if you think Obamacare has riled up the silent majority - just wait until The Won attempts to dismantle the Armed Forces - he will be not only a One Term (loser) POTUS - he might not even make it to the end of the one term.
These fools need to study history and stop re-writing it - You can only let the thugs, scum and criminal types get so much rope and leeway - before the righteous hang ‘em and then come for the pansy whinners who let ‘em go.
Robert A. Heinlein’s Time Enough for Love
Just bought this one from AMZN. better late then never.
Well done peiper.
It’s a good read. Somewhat out-of-date technology-wise: none of the classic sci-fi authors foresaw the rise of the personal computer. The classic example is James Blish’s Cities in Flight wherein the City Manager loses his slide rule in the recycler trash.
Slide rule? Does anyone remember them. Wish I still had mine. I used one up until 10th grade. I’d learned to add, subtract, multipy, divide, and take a square root on them. Then the early four-function calculators got cheap enough that kids brought them to school. So the teachers outlawed ALL calculators, including my slide rule. :-(
The law decided that it is one thing to strike when you are being struck; it is quite another to chase your attacker down the street and beat him senseless. Morally, as well as legally, the distinction looks clear. Hussein’s family were no longer in danger, and neither was he, when the cricket bat came down on Salem’s head. Justice must be measured by the thump of a gavel, not by the thwack of willow on skull.
Just because I or my family are no longer in danger is not the morally correct view. Society is still in danger if I let such a psychotic anti-social deviant live. He already had 50! FIFTY! convictions. Obviously the government has failed to protect its citizens from a known anti-social psychopath.
Chase him down and kill him. If you’re going to go to jail for defending yourself and family and society anyway, go with gusto. Kill the bastard.
Justice must be measured by the thump of a gavel, not by the thwack of willow on skull
What a great line. No kidding. It reads extremely well. Good wordsmithing. HOWEVER ...
The problem is and has been for a long time, that the gavel has NOT been dropping with a well deserved thump, but a rather timid tap which impresses no one, least of all the criminal class.
GOF .....
Wife just read your comment and says you should have been the defense lawyer in this case. Well said, she says.
And btw ... we agree with Christopher. Kill the bastard! After 50 convictions this is one turd that will never turn.
Wow peiper, I think I just had a Chris (thrill up my leg) Matthews moment.
Peiper agreed with me! Wow!
I do hope you enjoy reading Time Enough for Love.
If you like that, may I suggest Stranger in a Strange Land?
"how tempting to reach for the cricket bat. What would you do?” I don’t have a cricket bat, will a 9mm with two 14 round magazines work? No? Hmmm, well I suppose the 12 gauge with steel shot will have to do then.
Posted by TheOldMan
12/18/2009 at 06:07 PM
Christopher, #14. Gee. Unless I read it incorrectly, you make it look as tho you believe I disagree most of the time, when in fact I thought just the opposite. That is, that I generally agree .
