End of the Season?
CYA time Drew. Get a written waiver from the guy for ventaltion fumes resulting from the lack of proper venting or it will come back and bite you in the ass.
Not a bad idea. I spoke with him, and pointed this out, but he doesn’t think it’s worth it.
The customer may not be always right, but as long as they keep paying their bills they remain king. Unless I can find some local building code ... but as far as I know, Board of Health inspections stop at flipping on the light and ascertaining that the fan comes on.
Uhh........it’s a ventilation fan. Pumping noxious fumes and excess humidity into the “deadspace” of a structure is not “ventilation”.
Trust me. I’m currently living with such an arrangement: the main floor bath is “vented” into the subfloor of the upstairs sleeping area. The damn ceramic tile upstairs is changing color.On the positive side, there are very few ants (common here) crawling around on that floor.
Just say’in, is all.
Boynsea
Posted by BoynSea
10/15/2009 at 08:34 PM
During the recent remodel of our offices, the dumbass HVAC guy left the bathroom vented to the massive dead space above our lay-in ceiling (think unused second floor) and it still drifted over and dropped into the reception area so bad that our front door/lobby area frequently had that outhouse aroma. Our receptionist nearly quit before we got him back in to fix it.
Vent that sucker to the outside, tell him its code in his area or something.
The CYA waiver is a good idea, because you will more than likely be going back to fix it later.
BoynSea -
Oh I agree completely. And these days various building codes (IRC/2000, UCC) want you to run insulated ducting through unheated areas to avoid condensation. The R-8 stuff costs $40 for a 25 foot run. Plus connectors etc. Although as far as I can tell, only R-3.5 ducting is required ... but only if it’s replacing existing ducting!
It’s a gray area - this isn’t new construction, it’s a repair. What the codes call a “like for like” replacement. Putting in ducting would be an addition, which has it’s own set of rules.
It all comes under the HVAC rules, covered by the ASHRAE Standard 90.1-2004. As far as I can tell, these standards are NOT replaced by the various International Building Codes of 2006.
http://www.realread.com/prst/pageview/browse.cgi?book=1931862664
But if they are supplanted by IBC 2006 ...
The good news is that bathroom fumes are not legally categorized as “noxious and hazardous”, so those rules don’t apply.
While it is true that “1203.4.2.1 Bathrooms. Rooms containing bathtubs, showers, spas and similar bathing fixtures shall be ventilated in accordance withe the International Mechanical Code.”, this bathroom only has a toilet and a sink. So that rule doesn’t apply; there really is no humidity control involved here. http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/newjersey/NJ_Building/Building_Frameset.htm
And the flexible duct I’ve been looking at is UL 181 compliant, so that meets with the International Mechanical Code. http://www2.iccsafe.org/states/newjersey/NJ_Mechanical/Mechanical_Frameset.htm
Further rules state that the above ceiling area CAN be used as an air plenum. But to be a real plenum, and not just a dump zone for smells, there has to be a means of pulling out any air that gets pushed in.
Actually, it looks to me that if I hook up ductwork to vent these fans to the outside, then I have to make sure that the fresh air ingress level is increased. Which could open a whole other HVAC can of worms. Maybe it’s better not running anything.
Bottom line is, I can’t find any specific rule that says “all bathroom fans in commercial establishments must have ducting installed that vents to the outside.”
If any BMEWS readers are real HVAC professionals, I’d love to hear from them.
Knighthawk
I agree that venting is the SMART way to go. However, my client is looking to pinch pennies until they scream.
There may be somebody in government that I can talk to, and get an answer based on specific rules and regulations.
I’m not worried about going back later to fix things. It’s more money for me. Besides, I’m in there every week doing the cleaning anyway.
A listing of rules, regs, and standards that say to me, USE DUCTS!!
[ which shows the insane lengths I go to do things properly. What a dingus I am. Um, or else I’m extremely professional, even though I’m just the handyman for this customer ]
ANSI/ASHRAE Standard 90.1-2007
Energy Standard for Buildings Except Low-Rise Residential Buildingshttp://openpub.realread.com/rrserver/browser?title=/ASHRAE_1/ashrae_90_1_2007_IP_1280
Section 4. Administration and Enforcement
4.1.1.4 Replacement of Portions of Existing Buildings:
Portions of a building envelope, heating, ventilating, air-conditioning, service water heating, power, lighting, and other systems and equipment that are being replaced shall be considered an Alteration of Existing Building and shall comply with the Standard as described in Section 4.24.2 Compliance
4.2.1.3 Alterations of Existing Buildings: Alterations of existing buildings shall comply with the provisions of Sections 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10, provided that nothing in this standard shall require compliance with any provision of this standard if such compliance will result in the increase of energy consumption of the building.
6. Heating, Venting, and Air Conditioning
6.1.1.3 Alterations to Heating, Venting, and Air-Conditioning in Existing Building
6.1.1.3.4 New and replacement ductwork shall comply with 6.4.4.1 and 6.4.4.26.4 Mandatory Provisions
6.4.4 HVAC System Construction and Insulation
6.4.4.1 Insulation
6.4.4.1.2 Duct and Plenum Insulation. All supply and return ducts and plenums installed as part of an HVAC air distribution system shall be thermally insulated in accordance with Tables 6.8.2A and 6.8.2B.6.4.4.2 Duct and Plenum Leakage
6.4.4.2.1 Duct Sealing. Ductwork and plenums shall be sealed in accordance with Table 6.4.4.2A (Table 6.4.4.2B provides definitions of seal levels), as required to meet the requirements of 6.4.4.2.2 and with standard industry practice (see Appendix E).Table 6.4.4.2A specifies that Exhaust type ducting for Conditioned Spaces be sealed to Seal Level B levels.
Table 6.4.4.2B defines Seal Level B as “All transverse joints, longitudinal seams. Pressure-sensitive tape shall not be used as the primary sealant, unless it has been certified to comply with UL-181A or UL-181B by an independent testing laboratory and the tape is used in accordance with that certification .Further reading of the NJ Uniform Construction Code, along with the SMACNA Duct Construction Standards - 1995 and 2006, and the 2006 International Mechanical Code, New Jersey Edition, show that the minimum insulation value for such ducting is R-3.5. Clamps are the preferred method of connecting ducts, but tape that is marked UL-181P is also allowed.
