Denial
Unbelieveably, there are ignorant white trash bottom-feeders like him at the local VFW who use the N-word. I’m writing to the Post and the State Commandants and leaving the Post. Pin-heads like this are uneducable, except by my .38, but I am shocked that they’re not afraid to open their filthy mouths in public.
Even if I confronted them at the bar, who’d want to drink with WF’s like that in the future?
Anybody have another suggestion?
Posted by Oink
02/28/2006 at 07:54 AM
When Irving doesn’t discuss the Holocaust, he’s a pretty decent WWII historian. His books “Trail of the Fox”—about Erwin Rommel, “Churchill’s War”—WWII from Churchill’s point-of-view, and others offer a different insight into the war.
He is, however, completely off the end regarding the Holocaust. Still in all, it’s his opinion and all of this is a demonstration how freedom of speech is limited in other countries.
I don’t understand why a competent historian like Irving can be so wrong about the Holocaust.
Posted by MAJ Mike
02/28/2006 at 08:19 AM
I take the more rigorous position that WW2 never happened.
Posted by Oink
02/28/2006 at 08:29 AM
Denial: It is NOT a river in Africa.
This crank wanker oxygen thief travels hand in hand with the crazy
who calls himself “president” Ahmadipshitnutjob of Iran. And Hitler. 
OK, WWII never happened, The Blitzrieg never happened, the Battle of Britain never happened, London never got bombed by Germany, etc etc etc ...
Rat et al: It is a good lesson, if anybody needed one, of the consequences of surrendering the Brain to the Ideology. I’d like to name it “Liberal’s Disease”, but it is not.
An example of it was Churchill’s pre-WW2 refusal to see that the Japs were indeed going to attack Singapore. In his case maybe not a disease but an example of “How a series of incremental facts, contradicting a Belief, fails to dissuade a person—until the disaster happens”.
None of this is near as despicable as the above scumbag’s hatred and idiocy.
I got another damn mass email from a Marine about how “Starbucks Does Not Support Our Troops” —recently it was “Ollie North’s Testimony about Dangerous Osama—Scoffed at by Liberals”. Both are 1. Appealing to our pre-conceptions 2. Total Bull
.
Five minutes of Googling could have revealed this, before passing it along. BEWARE! It could happen to YOU!
Posted by Oink
02/28/2006 at 10:55 AM
See, this is why I rarely post - you guys have the same reactions I do.
Passing laws that make certain beliefs illegal is just as crazy as some of this guy’s beliefs. That’s a Thought Crime straight out of Orwell. Wrong, wronger, and wrongest!
Worse yet, Irving RECANTED 15 years ago. WTF kind of slow motion courts do they have in Austria that he’s only getting tried and sentanced NOW?
Furthermore, the man is a British citizen. Why on earth did England give him up for this kind of bullshit charge, over a decade and a half after the fact and his recant? What is wrong with England???
Hey Oinky, what’s a “WF”?
Drew: Jump right in! NONE OF US READ WHAT OTHERS POST.
Using WF in a sentence, “If his mother didn’t get $2, his was a totally Wasted F
.
Posted by Oink
02/28/2006 at 12:35 PM
I’m Jewish and I grew up in West Los Angeles in the 1950’s. It was then, as I guess it still is, heavily Jewish. One day in the local bakery, I spotted some numbers tatooed on a lady’s arm. Being a little kid, I started to ask about it - loudly. My mother hushed me up pretty quick. Later on, when we had friends over, I noticed that when WW II and Germany would come up everyone got real quiet. I didn’t know what had happened, but I understood that it was something no one wanted to talk about, at least around a little kid. In the 1950’s, if you were an American Jew, the Holocaust (we didn’t even have a name for it then) was the elephant in the living room - you couldn’t miss it, but no one wanted to deal with it. When I got older, I found out what had happened and even met a camp survivor who was willing to talk about it.
Why do some deny it happened? I can’t tell you. I’d guess that it’s some combination of prejudice and insanity, but I really couldn’t say. Even though I didn’t lose any close relatives in the concentration camps, I can tell you that the legacy is not a nice one to carry.
As far Anti Semitism in general, I hate to say it folks, but in past centuries, the Catholic and many Protestant Churches got a lot of mileage by saying that the Jews murdered Christ. We’re treading on very dangerous ground here and I suppose that it’s time for me to be quiet. Most of the conversations that I’ve had with Christians have gotten very complicated about this point. Let it suffice to say though that a corrupt High Priest and a couple of pissed off money changers 2,000 years ago do not have the right to stain my reputation. You might also want to check out Vatican II (early/mid 1960’s) for more details.
DrJ: I don’t understand Anti-Semitism in my gut, but I’m an incorrigible Jew-lover. A simple book “Why the Jews” gets it I think. There a four bedrock essentials to Judaism: Monotheism, Torah, Chosen-ness, Israel. Those 4 are why you are hated; the only way to stop Anti-Semitism is to stop being Jewish. Why didn’t you think of that? Not an encouraging diagnosis, but realistic, and saves time in futile effort. Also the fact that Jews, as a group, actually are superior doesn’t help.
Historically,the Catholic (and Protestant) Churches were to worst—Islam shines by comparison. Before Modern Israel, that is. Now, the American churches are Israel & Jews’ best friends in the world. Rule: The more extreme Right or Left a person is, the more likely anti-semitic.
My daughter went to Hebrew Pre-School, could sing a Mean Hebrew Prayer before meals, and thought she was Jewish until she was six years old.
Posted by Oink
02/28/2006 at 03:44 PM
I live in
and therefore have been immersed in what the ‘commentariat’ in the media have to say about this case.
Firstly, the ‘historian’ made the comments denying the holocaust a few years before Austria passed the Anti-Hate laws that meant holocaust denial could mean imprisonment. His admittedly somewhat specious and ill-founded rebuttal of mainstream history was not in and of itself the main problem. Rather, it was the fact that certain people on the Right; they weren’t ‘right wing politicos’, they were Neo-Nazis so lets not mince words here, used Irving’s dubious researches to bolster their agenda of trying to rehabilitate the Nazis by attempting to deny the full measure of the crimes that had been perpetrated under that regime.
As regards handing him over. England did not hand Irving over to the Austrians, Irving made an ill-advised trip to Austria to preach his version of history to a group of far-right students in Austria, fully aware of the potential for prosecution, convicion and imprisonment were he to be captured and tried by the Austrian authorities.
I’ll admit that being able to imprison someone for saying the ‘wrong thing’ seems to go entirely against free speech, but I think it is a mistake to see this episode purely as a matter of free speech. Irving says he changed his mind about the historical record when the Berlin Wall came down and the Soviet archives pertaining to Nazi atrocities become widely available to Western scholars for the first time. That was 15 years ago. Why didn’t Irving write a book recanting his erroneous beliefs in the interim? His recantation at the court of Law in Austria might have been more convincing otherwise. Similarly, his apparent reversal of enlightenment from his prison cell gives an indication that his interest in such matters are not purely those of a disinterested academic historian.
As it is, while I concede that there are reasons for grave concern about the draconian implemenation, as well as the potential for ‘feature creep’ in such laws, the fact that somebody who is to all intents and purposes a propaganda vehicle for neo-Nazis means I have scant sympathy for Irving.
Posted by adversarial
02/28/2006 at 08:04 PM
adversarial: Next-to-last paragraph, first line, change “seems to go” to “obviously is”. I admit that Germany/Austria’s post WW2 law against Nazi-speech was well founded; but at some point it has to go. Along with military occupation.
Good post—informative, interesting. In addition to rehabilitating Nazis, Holocaust-Denial takes away sympathy with Jews, and blames them for a monstrous lie. The Holocaust is as well documented as anything in history. Scholars may argue over the numbers and nature of victims, but NOBODY who starts from the facts (see my post #6, above) can say it did not happen. Screw this loser, ignore him.
Posted by Oink
02/28/2006 at 08:23 PM
Have any of you guys actually read David Irving, or are all of your opinions based upon information from the Criminal Liberal Press? What I’ve read of his has been interesting and offers a counter-point to many accepted histories.
He doesn’t come across as an anti-Semite in any of the things I’ve read by him. I didn’t even know Irving was a Holocaust denier until I ran across the charge in the Criminal Liberal press.
He’s wrong as Hell in that regard, but I still find him an enjoyable read. Check out “Trail of the Fox”. You’ll never think of Rommel in the same way again.
Posted by MAJ Mike
02/28/2006 at 09:56 PM
And William Buckley fantasized of putting him in a Cell at Auschwitz, across from the crematoria—there were four. Holocaust denial, along with belief in a flat earth and secret messages from aliens , cast a pall over anything else one may write.
Old Russian Proverb: One spoonful of
ruins the whole meal.
Posted by Oink
02/28/2006 at 10:15 PM
Hi Oink,
I’ve seriously looked at Christianity over the years. Perhaps I should also mention that my full heritage is 50/50 - I’m Irish Protestant on one side of the family. Being half Orangeman and half Jewish has probably contributed to my looking around skeptically at the world and made me very independent in my views. The ultimate question is do I have Jewish brains and an Irish temper or Irish brains and a Jewish temper?
No offense to anyone, but the closest that I ever came to converting to Christianity, I ultimately realized that my real motive was so that I could join the majority culture. In the end, I listened to the G_d of my understanding. Believe me, it can be a little weird being a double minority half breed, although I’ve no doubt that several folks here have their own variation on the situation.
Short note for the Major - I’ve met lots of folks in my life who were intelligent, creative, and generally decent human beings, but who also had one bit of illogical craziness in their outlook on the world. It’s entirely possible that that is the situation with Mr. Irving. Just a guess, I really don’t have any solid information on him, but I have seen the situation before. (My Dad was a college professor - I’ve known geniuses who could barely get out of the rain.)
J: Sounds like you’re a bacon, lettuce & tomato on a toasted bagel....
Posted by Oink
03/01/2006 at 12:17 AM
Pretty much Oink. You left out the jalapeno and the wasabe though - my neighborhood butted up against a Mexican AND a Japanese neighborhood - got a bit of them in my outlook too.
Add to the mix coming of age in the 60’s, total boredom with linear career paths, hot rodding, an Irish taste for whiskey and a lot of interesting and unique people I’ve met over the years. In Yiddish I’m described as fermished (seriously mixed with overtones of “slightly” nuts).
Doc
Can anyone seriously doubt the existance of pure evil? I don’t. Evil people have always been among us and always will. Evil sees what evil wishes to see. I know it’s a simplistic explanation, but, sometimes the simple facts are correct.
Now, the only question is: Is it better to let these kooks spout thier loathsome opinions or should they just be made to stfu?
On the one hand, we know who they are and can avoid them. On the other hand, they make my blood boil and I want to commit violence (and I truly try to be more peaceful, so that upsets me too).
SO...I guess all I can do is, 1. Pray for thier souls, that they may be enlightened (even the worst sinner can be salvaged if he repents), 2. be prepared to refute evil when and if I run across it, and 3. teach my children so they will know the truth (I’m not sure the public education system is doing such a good job of it).
Punky: I totally agree with you.
Plus, 4. Be prepared to kick their scuzzy asses if they turn violent.
Posted by Oink
03/01/2006 at 09:26 AM
adversarial: Spot on, old chap.
Irving knew full well that his trip to Austria carried the risk of getting arrested. It was an act of both arrogance and stupidity. I read an interview with his girlfriend in the Daily Telegraph last week. (CBA to paste the link. Those interested will find it fairly easily.)
MAJ Mike: People can write good books and still be utter *ssholes in other regards.
Irving is in his seventies, and has nothing to lose. He probably reckons that a few years’ free accomodation courtesy of the Austrian government won’t do to him anything that hasn’t been done already. He’s completely broke, and (ISTR) was declared bankrupt back in 2004. On release, he will return to the right-wing rubber chicken circuit. He has been trading on his notoriety for the past 20 years, and will continue to do so.
Best to let him fade into obscurity.
03/01/2006 at 10:08 AM
