Union Backs Down


Posted by The Skipper    United States   on 03/15/2005 at 02:23 AM   
  1. Doesn’t matter; I still won’t ever buy one their POS cars again.  I got rid of my last union-made hunk of junk last year, and don’t ever plan on going back.  Should have done it years ago, at the same time I stopped even considering American-made motorcycles.  Congrats to Detroit for following the same path as Harley-Davidson-- right into the crapper.

    Posted by Jar(egg)head    United States   03/15/2005  at  09:14 AM  

  2. The Big 3 moving their plants into Canada because of Socialised Medicine there.  Now the Auto makers want to dump their contractual retirement health care benefits (Billions and billions of future liabilities) onto the backs of the American taxpayers.

    The big 3 won’t be able to compete with the Chinese cars when they hit the American market.  Maybe the UAW should start organizing the Chinese.

    I guess the Chinese cars look a lot like a GM product, but cheaper.

    I wonder how much a Chinese Corvette will be? question 

    Japanese cars are built by robots and Chinese cars are built by He Hung Low.

    Posted by Z Woof    United States   03/15/2005  at  09:56 AM  

  3. GM is invested heavily in the Chinese market for car sales, but low and behold all of their tooling and pre-production work was counterfeited by the Chinese…

    GM’s newly introduced model, already has a Chinese *knockoff* selling at a cheaper price…

    From my understanding....the people who imported the *yugo* to America..plan to import the Chinese *knockoff* to America…

    Poetic Justice. Go to China, get cheaper labor, screw over American workers and shoot yourself in the foot to boot.

    Good Work GM! smirk

    Posted by SouthernDoll    United States   03/15/2005  at  11:29 AM  

  4. American auto makers have not screwed over American workers.  American workers have screwed themselves over by continuing to align with their unions.  If the cost of labor is so high because of unions’ constant demand for unreasonable wages and health care packages, a corporation has no choice but to seek cheaper labor or raise the consumer cost of their goods to make up the difference.  We can’t have it both ways.

    The good news?  Let the Chinks flood the market with cheap goods that don’t work as well or last as long; people won’t buy them for long.  I could get cheap tools made in China, but they break real easy.  So I buy American made tools like Snap-On or Craftsman; they cost more, but they last forever.  And if they break, both companies have excellent reputations for honoring their lifetime guarantees.

    More good news is that Ford and GM are worldwide, with thriving subsidiaries down under and in Britain.  Ford is Ford down here, and GM dba Holden Motors in Aussie and Vauxhall in Britain.  And since they aren’t pre-occupied making SUV’s and full size pick-ups that skew CAFE numbers, Ford and Holden both make coupes and sedans here that have 400 hp AND rear wheel drive; and they both make modern incarnations of the Ranchero and El Camino.

    Posted by Illegitimi Non Carborundum    New Zealand (Aotearoa)   03/15/2005  at  04:15 PM  

  5. Send us pix of these cars, will ya?  400 HP?  From the factory?.  Ranchero and El Caminos?  I gotta see the pix.

    Posted by Vilmar    United States   03/15/2005  at  04:25 PM  

  6. GM and Ford have raised the cost of their goods. They are more expensive, yet more of the parts that go into the vehichles and the assembly of the vehichles is made out of country by non American workers, who yes, make wages so low that EVEN if there were no unions AND workers gave wage concessions there is NO way that American’s can support their families on **equal** wages in this country…

    Mexican auto workers *might* if they are lucky,make $3.00 per,no.. it is NOT the workers fault that the prices have gone up.

    GM and Ford, or for that matter, just about any *American* auto maker, have gone out of country for suppliers and , think about it, GM and Fords products, etc are higher this year than last year, BUT they are probably double or triple the amount of parts and labor used in their vehichles....The price of the end product did not get reduced when those auto makers saved money on foreign labor and parts...they just made more money.

    Toyota, Honda, and Nissan are moving most of their manufacturing to U.S. plants , for the U.S. market.....they make money *hand over fist* in this country, and they sure as heck would not be putting plants here if they weren’t

    GM does not use foreign labor and parts because they can’t afford to have the same here...they do it to save a few pennies per window, or door panels, or what have you...just to make a better, to say it is unreasonable to desire a reasonable wage, and decent healthcare for your family is just balderdash.

    So, since these American auto makers,( ie: GM, FORD, Crysler, etc)...major market is U.S. sales...if they annihilate the U.S. workforce, WHO is going to afford to buy all of these cars they sell here?

    Think electrolux: they used to make refridgerators here in the U.S. , now, all of their production is overseas- 100 percent....but all of their workers left here in the U.S. who used to be *middle class* workers and bought their product...are jobless now, or rehired at probably lower wages for a differnt company..Now, Electrolux builds their product in Mexico...but those same Mexican workers don’t nake a wage high enough to buy the product…

    So yes, at some point, what goes around, comes around- they will end up losing their major market because we will have so many American’s making low wage because of NAFTA that we will no longer be able to buy the massive amounts of their product. We are FAST losing our *middle class * in the U.S.

    ah.k...I’m done, *smoothing hair* wink

    Posted by SouthernDoll    United States   03/15/2005  at  04:58 PM  

  7. ED, you leave out one important factor:  a constantly shifting labor force due to technological progress.  Why should a corporation pay for expensive machinery to speed production AND pay workers more money who do less actual work than their predecessors?  Just because my dad used to make a good living wage back in the old days doing a particular job does not mean that I can or should be able to do the same.  The abacus maker was once a valued member of society but has since been replaced by the computer technician.  The horse shoer still performs a vital function for those who ride horses but, on a mass level, has been replaced by the Goodyear tire dealer.

    “ say it is unreasonable to desire a reasonable wage, and decent healthcare for your family is just balderdash.”

    Oh really?  How about this:  If one’s wages don’t afford one a particular lifestyle....GET ANOTHER JOB!!!!  If one has locked themselves into a field that has not enabled them to acquire any other job skills, oh well.  Not my problem.  I won’t pay $100,000 for a $50,000 car just so John Auto Worker can make $50 an hour watching a robotic welder because he feels it’s his right under a long standing tradition of John Auto Workers in his family.  Sad to say, but he is being phased-out.

    Your argument about those building a product should be able to afford the product they build is erroneous.  Should the carpenter doing the framework on a multi-million dollar home be able to afford the same home?  Where is that written?  A person is worth what a company is willing to pay him/her, and a product is worth what a person is willing to pay for it.

    Posted by Illegitimi Non Carborundum    New Zealand (Aotearoa)   03/15/2005  at  06:17 PM  

  8. Vilmar, this is the Holden HSV “Maloo.” Like the El Camino-Malibu/Chevelle amalgamation, it has the bed of a pick-up and the front of their popular sedans and coupes, the Commodore and Monaro, respectively. It and all V8 HSV’s come with the all new Gen IV 6.0 liter (366 all-aluminum small block that is standard in the new Corvette.  They rate power in kilowatts and torque in Newton-meters down here.  1 kilowatt = 1.34 horsepower, so 297kw is just a tick under 400hp, and the motor makes way over 400 lb/ft of torque under a LARGE curve cheese  Check out the rest of the HSV sedans and coupes at
    These are the same people who are building their Monaro as left-hand drive and sending it to the US to be sold as the Pontiac GTO.  Many do not like the “look,” but in terms of performance, comfort, and driveability (no solid rear axles, baby, but real IRS with limited slip diffs!), they blow the snot out of the old barge GTO’s of days gone by.

    Last year’s “VY” models used the Gen III 5.7 liter/345 cu. in. LS6 and were rated at 300kw - an even 400hp - but they worked harder on the top end and with a narrower torque curve than the new 6.0 liter LS2 to get relatively the same power.

    Here’s the new Ford Super Pursuit “Ute” (that’s what they call pick-ups down here).

    You can also check out the Falcon XR8 and XR6T by going here and clicking on the “virtual showroom.”

    All these cars and “utes” are available with a 4 speed auto or 6 speed manual tranny.

    Posted by Illegitimi Non Carborundum    New Zealand (Aotearoa)   03/15/2005  at  06:57 PM  

  9. GM did not shift jobs to Mexico because they have a *robot* that can build it cheaper than here in the U.S....your argument is that jobs are lost because those skills are not required anymore...there are still *human* beings in Mexico assembling cars the same way as they assemble them here...just paying 3 dollars versus 20...I have no problem with the fact that ,yes, jobs may be lost due to *technological advances*- my post referred to the fact that jobs are being lost in the U.S. because of cheaper labor in foreign countries, not because those skills are not still used here in the U.S., hence, I did not address technological advances involved in job loss.

    Yes- it IS balderdash .All manufacturing jobs are disappearing in this country due to being outsourced to foreign countries...So, why doesn’t everybody go back to school and we can have 200 million lawyers in this country...the point here is *middle class* is eroded so badly, indeed continues to erode daily due to companies quests for maximun profits...I am not sinmply speaking of a**particular* lifestyle...I am referring to the fact that a large portion of the workforce cannot even afford healthcare insurance, in my humble is not an extravagant luxury...or *lifesty;e* is REASONABLE to expect that a person should be able to make *emough* to at least support a family on a modest income, and have decent healthcare...I am not talking about living *high on the hog*...see? that is the problem...a nation of *have* versus *have not* ...the vanishing *middle class*

    GM is not going to raise the cost of a car to $100,000 in an automated factory that has less employees...who cares if one guy is making 50 bucks an hour to hit the button to run a robot that replaced 20 employees- Finacially...they are still way ahead in profit

    And last, but not leastsmile ok...let us go refer back to that worker in Mexico making 3 dollars an hour , working for electrolux..who can not afford to buy a 600 dollar have twisted that comment into a construction worker being able to buy a multi million dollar home..Most construction people- general labor...more than likely live in a mobile home...they don’t expect to be paid a wage that will afford them that multi million dollar home..however, they do expect, and rightly so, that they will be paid a reasonable wage , so that they might be able to support their family modestly. we are at *middle class* ...the vanishing middle class..According to your scenario...the U.S should aspire to become a third world country...smirk

    Don’t get me wrong..I am not necessarily pro union...Honda and Toyota plants here in the U.S. pay within just a few dollars of what GM’s rate is...yet, they are highly successful non union plants...and they have stayed non union because they’re employees feel they get **reasonable** pay and benefits for their employment.....

    ah k...I’m done wink

    Posted by SouthernDoll    United States   03/15/2005  at  07:07 PM  

  10. ED:  we live in a capitalistic society.  You get paid what you are worth and NO ONE, repeat, NO ONE owes you a living.  If you are too lazy or too stupid to do no better than a minimum wage job, that is NOT my problem.  If you insist on living in an area where the best wages are $9 an hour, don’t come crying to me.  MOVE!!  GET BETTER SKILLS!

    And it is NOT reasonable to expect you get paid enough to live on.  If I am a slacker with no incentive and want to work at McDonald’s that’s my right.  But my employer has NO obligation to make sure I can afford a home or apartment or car or anything, for that matter.  That is MY responsibility.  If I can not afford to take care of a family I should NOT have a family.

    Plus, I resent the fuck out of having to support a bunch of low-aspiring slackers.

    INC was spot on with his examples and analogies.

    And personally, I could give a shit less about that Mexican who can not afford a fridge.  It is not my problem.  You need to understand that whereas 3/4 of the world does not have our standard of living, in time they will be where we are (and we will be better because we are smarter, harder working, and more efficient.  Not to mention less corrupt.)

    The Mexican making $3 an hour today is like the immigrant who came to the US and worked his ass off in factories making things he could NEVER afford.  But he kept at it and through drive, determination and hard work saw his life improve.  He took care of his family, lived in a shitty apartment and kept his kids in school.  The kids did better and in time THEIR kids did better.  Hell, I don’t have to go too far back.  My father didn’t have a pot to piss in when he left Portugal.  He made it to Brazil, got married and made it to the US in 1958.  We lived in shitty 4th floor walk-up apartments for a long time.  My father never made it past 3rd grade.  My mother---6th grade.  My sister and I both have college degrees; our kids have been to college.  My father retired at the age of 60. I retired at the age of 46. I worked my ass off and deprived myself of much in order to get where I am today.  I never felt anyone owed my anything. Neither does my son.

    The Mexican is now having a better standard of living than what he was used to.  His kids will also do better.

    I swear, to read what you write I would think you’re a closet socialist.

    Posted by Vilmar    United States   03/15/2005  at  08:18 PM  

  11. Hellooooooooooooo rolleyes
    Good Lord.
    Stop pullong my hair and calling me BAD names.

    All of my comments on this topic are related to the vanishing *middle class * in this country.

    You completely missed the point, but that is ok

    Key Points:
    No where did I EVER state that just anyone who has a job should be able to support a family.

    My comment was that a middle class worker ( who, oh by the way-probably now, more than ever,is likely to have gone to technical schools and or college) are being told now, that they should be paid much less money because that job can be exported.

    Where in ANY of what I posted did I say a **slacker** should get anything for free.?

    People that are losing jobs, many times are NOT *low aspiring slackers*.

    Perhaps you should calm down and re read my comments- the *afford a fridge * comment was made to make a point- and NOT the one you got from it. Geesh- perhaps you have had too much caffeine today.

    NO WHERE in either comment that I posted, did I say ONE word about *owing* people something....the middle class workers I refer to are the ones who are decent , good, hard working, educated people, who , even when they work their butts off, still cant make ends meet, yet their company CEO probably paid himself 15 million dollars this year.

    I’m pro business, but there is a trend in this country for upper management in these companies to skim off millions of dollars in pay and stock options, yet, these same CEO’s and company Presidents are complaining that their company can no longer make it in this country because their workers are paid too much.

    Call me whatever you what, makes no never mind to me.

    Posted by SouthernDoll    United States   03/15/2005  at  09:15 PM  

  12. Okay ...I will comment, at first I thought Vilmar had summed the situation up just dandy, however, I see ED has taken the views personally.

    Outsourcing of jobs, relocation of factories, is a WORLD wide problem and for the same reason… manufacturers have to keep consumer prices down as far as possible without endangering their profits; else why be in business?....$$$$$’s count in every industry.

    However, personal experience in my life time has proven one fact that has remained constant:  99% of people do not live a life style they can afford without going into debt; they live way above what they earn whether it be middle, low or high income. This is the major fault with statistics used on how a middle class person can no longer afford health coverage, FACT.  Go into those homes that claim they are hard done by and see if they have cable; if they buy take outs; if they have no computer or any luxuries i.e. cigarettes, a child’s room full of toys etc - then come back and say they can not afford to cover basic essential needs like food, medical etc.

    I have read in depth reports given about the average income in the US and what those average families have...OMG ...come here and pay $5.00(US$) for a gallon of gas; come here to earn 1/2 the hourly rate, and you will see that every home is still not without luxuries; but you will also see that only the slackers live a hard lifestyle.

    Posted by Apathy or freedom    New Zealand (Aotearoa)   03/15/2005  at  10:03 PM  

  13. I don’t care if the Big 3 move all their plants to Canada for their “FREE” health insurance.  I just think GM CEO Wagner shouting Socialize the American health system is UNAMERICAN.  Buy a Honda.

    These old Big companies and their legacy costs with retired workers is their problem and their stock holders.  Don’t dump these companies liabilities in retirement health care costs onto the backs of American taxpayers.

    American autoparts maker “Delphi” just stripped their retired workers (non union) of retirement health benefits.  And the company stock is in a free fall.  PLUS, management made employees buy the stock in their 401Ks, pathetic.

    Detroit will have 2 retired workers for every current worker in 20 years.  But Detroit is not a company and can just raise taxes. 

    The key is called a “Defined Contribution” exactly like Governor Jeb Bush is doing with Medicaid in Florida.  Jeb should have the border patrols demand prove of Long Term Care (LTC) insurance before you can move into Florida if you are over 60 years old.  island

    Become a nurse and move to Florida and buy real estate. cool smirk

    Posted by Z Woof    United States   03/16/2005  at  07:00 AM  

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