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Weekend Discussion: Nguyen Tuong Van

 
 


Posted by The Skipper    United States   on 12/03/2005 at 12:39 PM   
 
  1. I agree that at first I was saddened by what seemed extreme punishment for a trivial crime.  But who are we to interfere and tell another country what is wrong or right?  Who is to say our system is the best?  Brutal murderers on death row for 28 years is certainly the other end of too lenient for me.  But hey, in American, we hung horse thieves about 100+ years ago.  I bet horse thievin was minimalized significantly back then.  Today, cars get stolen at an incredible rate, and almost nothing gets done to the guys that get caught doing it.  We went through our growing pains and adjusted our laws and punishment accordingly.  So should be allowed other countries.  I am sure many of the citizens in that country can not believe what we let our criminals get away with and are probably just as appalled at the lack of punishment as we are at thier over zealousness to punish.  But, as I said, who are we to say whats right.  Its sad...but hey, this guy broke the law, got a fair trial, and punished accordingly.  He knew the rules going in.  If he didn’t want to be hung, he should have done what every other drug dealer did...smuggle drugs in America instead. 

    Of course, that is my opinion...I could be wrong.

    sdkar

    Posted by sdkar    United States   12/03/2005  at  01:55 PM  

  2. Did any of you take note of the second story where it says the Australians banned the death penalty in 1973 and are totally opposed to it yet are supporting the death penalty imposed on the terrorists responsible for the Bali bombings which killed 88 Australians? Double standard on the part of the West?

    Remember the 1970’s movie “Midnight Express”? Why is anyone surprised that other countries really frown on drug smugglers and impose harsh penalties on those they catch, expecially stupid foreigners?

    This man’s case seems pretty clear-cut to me. He knew the penalties going in. He took the risk and rolled the dice. It came up snake-eyes.

    Governments pass laws to protect its citizens. If the laws prove to be bad, then change the laws. If the government makes too many bad laws, change the government. If you visit a country, expect to be ruled by their laws, not yours. If you don’t like their laws, don’t visit.

    Should we execute drug dealers in the US? I believe we should. As Bob said, how many lives are destroyed by their “product”, for which they are making an enormous amount of money? Nowadays, they know the only risk is less than ten years in prison in most cases.

    What about hanging? Is that “cruel and unusual punishment”? Too many unanswered questions here, gang!

    soapbox

    Posted by The Skipper    United States   12/03/2005  at  03:45 PM  

  3. I think the punishment is too harsh.  I’d be inclined to give him a jail sentence and then deport him back home.

    Posted by Mad Jack    United States   12/03/2005  at  04:13 PM  

  4. "“The death penalty is something we simply must oppose in every case,” Lasry said. “We can’t pick and choose anymore. If you are against it you are against it for everyone.”

    Sounds like a pretty stupid person.. while I would probaly be against the death penalty for Shoplifters. for murderers,rapists, and child molestors I’m pretty much for it depending on circumstances.. For Murder all the time unless it was a case of self defense

    Posted by Infinity    United States   12/03/2005  at  04:57 PM  

  5. as for the death penalty for drug smugglers I’m not sure.. but they neglect to say in Muslim ruled countries, The death penalty is the punishment for Being caught Drug trafficking there also,and the penalties for alcohol/drug use is pretty severe. if you value your life don’t smuggle drugs in the middle east or singapore..  pretty simple.. oh and if you have Homosexual tendacies, stay away from the middle east as well.. as the death penalty is the punishment for homosexual activities too..

    Posted by Infinity    United States   12/03/2005  at  05:06 PM  

  6. Van knew what he was doing was wrong, he knew the penalty, he did it anyway. I feel sorry for his mother, she in some ways failed as a parent in that she did not instill in her sons respect and responsibility. He got what he deserved.
    Our system here is screwed up and needs total reform. I am opposed to life sentences. I feel that the max sentence should be 20 years, and a max combined total of 25 years. Long sentences simply turn the perp into a caged animal. Prisoners need to have a reason to reform, and thats where capital punishment comes in. If people refuse to be productive members of society, society doesn’t need them. Short harsh sentences. Three strikes rule, and capital punishment for certain crimes. I am also against lethal injection unless the perp waives all appeals and takes the needle immediately after conviction. Appeals need to be swift, and should be limited to habius corpus, instead of these lame long appeals regarding proceedures, evidence etc. Capital cases should be at the gallows within a year.
    Hanging is grusome, but not cruel. the drop breaks the neck, rendering them unconsious, after that they strangle. Twitching and jerking are involuntary actions, the same as you see when a chicken is beheaded.
    For rapists and child molestors, a harsher punishment is merited. Nail their prick to a dry stump or post and set it on fire. give the guy a dull knife and let him chose how he dies.

    Posted by Jeremy    United States   12/03/2005  at  05:37 PM  

  7. If Singapore has a law that says you hang for importing drugs, bummer for you if you are caught doing it.  It sounds like everything was done according to their laws.

    Strictly speaking, I don’t have too many problems with capital punishment, other than it takes way too long for it to be carried out.  This whole 20+ years crap to get it done is ridiculous.  Also, why do we need all these exotic ways to execute someone?  Usually a person on death row got there by committing aggravated murder.  The victim(s) likely did not get humane treatment.  While I don’t think slow and painful executions should be done (except for child rapist/murderers; I think they should suffer for a long time), a firing squad is a cheap and quick way to get the job done.

    I know, a rough position for a Christian, but even Jehovah supported capital punishment for various crimes.

    Posted by John C    United States   12/03/2005  at  06:46 PM  

  8. My first impression, before reading the article through, was perhaps he was a guy who had it planted on his luggage (sort of a paranoid nightmare scenario for me).

    However...reading further down, he had it TAPED TO HIS BACK. Yeah. Intentional act. No “accidents” or plants there.

    Drug dealer and smugglers are cut from the same mold as murderers and should be treated as such.

    I am not a death penalty proponent because as long as there is one person who is executed who is later exonerated by DNA and such, then that is one innocent person too many killed by state sanctioned executions.

    What about the ones who are really and trully guilty, such that DNA proves there guilt? Death by a shot or a little jolt of electricity is too kind. My solution is to cart these animals off to a remote and environmentally hostile island and let them succumb to either each others brutality or to slow and painful starvation.

    Regarding Singapore...well, when you’re in Rome you have to do as the Romans..and that includes abiding with their laws. Tough break.

    Posted by CharmingBarracuda    United States   12/03/2005  at  07:31 PM  

  9. The DPIC site is a load of BS. They have several they claim were innocent whren their convictions were thrown out due to technicalities, not evidence of innocence.
    Death row inmates are subjected to the tightest scrutiny. It is doubtful that proof of innocence would not be found if in fact the person was innocent. A person is more apt to be wrongly sentenced to life rather than death.

    Posted by Jeremy    United States   12/03/2005  at  07:51 PM  

  10. Singapore in my opinion applies the right blend of justice and freedom. This execution serves more as an example of Singapore’s unwavering refusal to allow narcotics to get a foothold in its society and less about the individual that committed the crime.

    Singapore’s zero tolerance for illegal narcotics protects its citizens from being burdened with the side effects and high costs that drug abuse ultimately has on society.  It is based on the sound reasoning that the merchants of the drug trade are murderers and destroyers of human life.

    The media coverage of this case has exponentially increased the effectiveness of its policy as the world is reminded that Singapore puts the welfare of its people over the wishy washiness of the western world and the termporary condition of frosty relations from the government and citizens of the country of the condemned.

    Mr Nguyen owed it to himself and his family to understand the risks and consequences of his actions. Singapore is static, it was Mr. Nguyen who travelled to Singapore to break its laws. As far as I’m concerned, the executioner and the executed are one in the same.

    Posted by Kuso JiJi    Japan   12/03/2005  at  09:12 PM  

  11. Skipper: I tend to agree with our Japanaese friend, Kuso Ji Ji. The welfare of the people is of prime importance. Why should we weep for Van?

    Posted by The Skipper    United States   12/03/2005  at  09:21 PM  

  12. Singapore is a BEAUTIFUL place, you throw garbage on the sidewalk, you’re gonna get caned, you throw gun on the street, you’re gonna get caned, you paint graffiti, you are going to get caned,

    The punishment there is HARSH, but it is carried out vigorously, fairly, and quickly.

    The deterrant is there, I would NOT break the law in Singapore under ANY circumstances, because if you are caught, ho baby!!

    Justice is swift, it is fair, and it is quick.

    It is one of the most pristine, crime free, and beautiful places in the world.

    And that is why…

    Posted by Jaguar    United States   12/03/2005  at  09:28 PM  

  13. What do I think, Skipper?  I think it sucks to be Van right now.

    I am never at a loss of amazement at foreigners who travel to countries not natively their own, proceed to unabashedly break local laws and expect some sort of lenience.  Simply astounding.

    “Kuso Jiji”...hahaha.  What a name!  You’re not referring to the Skipper I hope?  smile

    Posted by shinjinrui    United States   12/03/2005  at  11:01 PM  

  14. As I remember, several years ago there was a US citizen caned for some minor infraction, and quite the stir here. After returning home, he assaulted his father. I guess he didn’t learn alesson, but more important, our judicial system failed to learn one.

    Posted by Jeremy    United States   12/03/2005  at  11:06 PM  

  15. I had an office colleague who often went to Singapore and Malaysia, which also has a death penalty for drug possession, and Chip told me that the customs declarations form for one or both countries (I don’t recall which) gave him chills every time he went there.

    In the section where you list what dutiable goods you are bringing into the country, there is a sentence in bold red letters with a bold red frame around it that says: THE PENALTY FOR POSSESSION OF DRUGS IS DEATH.  He was so nervous about the possibility of a drug plant in his luggage that he made it tamper evident by wrapping his baggage in duct tape and signing his name all over it. He was an experienced traveller and loved the Pacific rim countries, but said he was always in a state of numb terror until he cleared his bags.

    As to our smuggler, his behavior upon discovery indicates he knew what the law was before he embarked on his smuggling trip, and while his motive was altruistic and his behavior in prison exemplary, his deed was illegal. The State punishes the deed; God will examine the man and his balance on his soul.

    I was impressed that the judge made it very clear in his ruling that the legislature did not put any mitigation consideration in the statute for this offense, unlike others, giving the judge no option in sentencing.  Only the President could intervene to commute or pardon, which he declined to do.

    Posted by dick    United States   12/03/2005  at  11:43 PM  

  16. Has anyone here lived in Signapore for any length of time? I have not, so I’m curious to know from a first-person perspective whether or not Signapore has a rampant drug problem. If they don’t, I wonder if that has anything to do with the harsh penalties they enforce....  hmmm

    Posted by Jester    United States   12/04/2005  at  12:14 AM  

  17. Is hanging a cruel and unusual punishment?

    It obviously is if you’re the one wearing the rope necklace.  I don’t have a problem with hanging, the electric chair or the firing squad just as long as the punishment fits the crime. The left’s main argument against capital punishment is that it hasn’t proven to be a deterant. I am not qualified to agree or disagree, but just suppose the lefty’s are right, if lethal injection kills em dead and that is not enough of an effective deterant then one can surmise that lethal injection is far too kind and doesn’t make the criminally minded stop and think. Perhaps if they knew they would get their necks snapped or their brains liquified some would be detered from their evil deed and the left could find something to like about the protective measures being taken to prevent innocent people from suffering horrible and violent deaths.

    Here in Japan, death by hanging is alive and well but with a little different twist. The condemned knows not their final hour. They must drift into sleep every night wondering if it is their last.  As in the US, the appeals process must play itself out, the beauty of the Japanese system is in the vagueness of the timeline.  The prisoner is not informed when the appeals process starts or ends. The executioner is dispatched immediately following the end of the appeals process in the middle of the night and leads the condemned off to the gallows. No media frenzy, no last minute appeal by Susan Sarandon and Snoop Doggy Dog, no special request for a meal, no last minute reckoning with God or family. The execution is followed up with a notification to the condemned’s family and a short to the point dispatch to the media.

    Now that is what I call justice.

    P.S. Apologies to the Skipper for not loading up my profile yet which will include an explanation of my moniker.

    Posted by Kuso JiJi    Japan   12/04/2005  at  01:07 AM  

  18. There is not a drug problem in Singapore. I have friends from there.

    My take on Van is RIP. He knew that law of the land. Their house, their rules. End of discussion.

    The Hobo

    Posted by Robohobo    United States   12/04/2005  at  01:10 AM  

  19. Tough break for Van but as other commenters have pointed out he knew what could happen if caught. I’m not sure if I agree with the Gilbert & Sullivan “let the punishment fit the crime”. However I am convinced that the swift approach to justice in Singapore leads to low crime levels. In Britain today you cannot walk through a city street without noticing the stains and residue from gum chewing. People will spit out gum even when a rubbish bin is next to them. In Singapore the streets are always clean because that kind of filthy behaviour would result in arrest and a caning.

    We can’t do that sort of thing in Europe now because it’s deemed uncivilised by the intelligentsia. I am not sure if I would be happier living in a country with authoritarian rules, but when I see what a bunch of disgusting slugs many of my fellow countymen are I do wish it visited upon them.

    As the Hobo says Van knew what risk he was taking and he ultimately only has himself to blame.

    By the way, slightly off topic but I noticed our beloved leader Mr Blair sanctioned a filibuster when a Conservative MP tried to introduce a law to allow home owners to defend their property. In England these days your home is no longer your castle. That’s the nonsense the liberals love.

    Posted by LyndonB    United Kingdom   12/04/2005  at  03:19 AM  

  20. Don’t do the crime if you can’t do the time, yeah, can you dig it?

    If I am flying from Seattle to Amsterdan via Toronto, I might be able to carry some junk and feel safe-ish. But Seattle to Bangkok via Singapor, I wouldn’t carry friggin’ asprin without a written prescription.

    I don’t carry a wad of cash in the Central District dive bars; a pretty woman with big tits wouldn’t wear a short skirt and low-cut blouse there either. Just being smart and self-preserving.

    Posted by Rickvid    United States   12/04/2005  at  03:23 AM  

  21. The man should be nominated for a Darwin Award!  You have to be some kind of special idiot to even think about smuggling drugs through Singapore or any Islamic country! Taped to his back and another in his backpack?!?!  Hell, even in America the mules swallow balloons full of heroin to thwart the drug dogs and searches.  With all the movies about the risks involved with international drug smuggling (Brokedown Palace - 1999, Midnight Express - 1978).  He apparently was rather desperate for money and the fastest way to obtain money is to smuggle drugs.  That was no small amount of heroin he was transporting!  If it was already cut, it would be 26,000 doses of heroin.  It was most likely not cut (pure or close to it), so it could have been 3-4 times as many doses. Street value greater then $100,000 USD.  But even if he had only 10 doses he probably would have still been executed.  He knew exactly what he was doing and he knew he was doomed the moment the customs officials caught him red handed.  Banging his head against the wall and probably calling himself stupid.  He was traveling from Phnom Penh to Melbourne and had a connecting flight in Singapore.  He was nothing but a mule, transporting the drugs for someone else.  The risk of getting caught and the risk of losing a large amount of product proves that the profit of such an adventure must be well worth it.  What one wonders is if this was his first time through Singapore on a smuggling mission or if he had done it before and how many other mules are currently making runs undetected?  Meanwhile the mule handlers in Cambodia and Melbourne are still operating and the opium is still being grown in Afghanistan.  It’s a 400 billion dollar a year business worldwide. He was nothing more then a sacrificed pawn in a very dangerous game of chess.

    Posted by MJS    United States   12/04/2005  at  10:07 AM  

  22. Here are some musings from up here in the cold country:

    Canuckistan used to have executions by hanging. We used the “long drop” method perfected in Britain and this method is in use by Singapore. To date, the medical profession has determined that the long drop hanging method is still the quickest and most humane method of execution due to the neck being broken between C3 and C4 and the spinal cord at this point being transected, the carotid arteries and vagal nerve system being damaged, causing instant death - as nearly as can be determined.
    The object of this procedure does not twitch or move, having been lashed to a backboard arrangement. The rope is of a special hemp (irony here?), boiled and stretched and is suspended from and eyebolt in a stout beam over the springloaded trap door. The amount determined for the length of the drop is carefully coiled and fastened by an easily broken string to preclude a loop of rope entangling with the body during the drop. The actual noose is formed using an eye through which the standing end of the rope is passed, wrapped in gutta-percha rubber, and is adjusted tight to the neck with a black rubber keeper. The drop is calculated using standard tables of height, weight, musculature etc. of the person being hanged. 12 hours prior to the hanging, a weighted sack equalling the weight of the victim is dropped through the trapdoor, and left that way until just prior to the actual execution to remove any residual stretch in the rope. From removal of the person from the holding cell to the drop is usually under two minutes. It all happens very quickly to minimize reaction time of the person being executed. No long slow walks with “...a guard and a sad ol’ padre...”

    This method apparently even surpasses the “depolarization” of the brain and CNS at the cellular level demonstrated using Florida’s electrocution system now in use at Raiford Prison:
    (Any one with some knowledge of electricity will know what this means.)

    “Following the safety switch being disengaged by the electrician, and the master switch engaed by the executioner, the automatic cycle begins with the programmed:
    2,300 volts, 9.5 amps, for 8 seconds;
    1,000 volts, 4.0 amps, for 22 seconds;
    2,300 volts, 9.5 amps, for 8 seconds.
    (Some adjustments to the former are allowed for the size, weight and ultimate resistance of current passing through the individual.)
    When the cycle is complete, the equipment is manually disconnected by _______________. (executioner) The safety switch is then opened by _______________. (electrician)”

    Sizzle!

    Our laws were modelled after the British Common Law system, as are yours in the US to some extent (and Singapore was once under British Colonial Rule). Unfortunately, despite a referendum in Canada to re-instate the death penalty back in the late 60’s or early 70’s in which upwards of 65% of people here were in favour of retaining the Rope, the lash, (for rape) and paddling, All were abolished by our government. Shame on us.

    I should point out something here that many of you may not know - Canada has recently enacted new tough laws regarding illicit drugs. If you are caught in posession of drugs deemed to amount to trafficking, or are caught manufacturing, running a grow-op etc., the sentence upon conviction is now mandatory LIFE IMPRISOMENT IN A FEDERAL PENITENTIARY. We’ve upped the ante even on simple possession too.
    (Rickvid, take note if flying via anywhere in Canuckistan!)

    So, that old 70’s TV commercial that used to be “If you’re busted for drugs over there, you’re in for the hassle of your life.” obviously still holds true for many countries.
    And personally, I’m all for it.

    --30--

    -Dan D,
    Canuckistan

    Posted by Dan D    Canada   12/04/2005  at  10:08 AM  

  23. Hmmm, I prefer the 10% solution.  Give the possessor of the drugs 10% of whatever he is carrying.  Takes care of the professional smugglers and might serve as a warning to the users unfortunate enough to get caught.  Drugs do destroy lives.  Some people give the appearance of functioning normally while under the influence.  The longer response time for the druggies can get others hurt (i.e. a machine shop).  I refuse to work with either a person who reeks of alcohol or I know to have been using drugs within the past 12 hrs.

    Posted by Kirk    United States   12/04/2005  at  02:51 PM  

  24. I’ve been to Singapore. It’s a beautiful, clean, city. It should be; I think you can be caned for spitting on the sidewalk. And don’t even consider littering…

    The laws are so strict that they even impose severe fines for having a ‘junk’ car. ‘Junk’ being defined as older than five years. Great shopping though. Never before or since have I been in an eight-story shopping mall. I have fond memories of Singapore, but be certain that I minded my manners while there. We were lectured by the CO and XO before docking.

    The guy knew the law was tough there. He knew the risk. He paid the price. Seems extreme to me also, but I tend to lean toward the Libertarian philosophy concerning drugs.

    Posted by Christopher    United States   12/04/2005  at  05:00 PM  

  25. Kirk - I like that! Have a little, get a buzz, have a lot, get the buzz of your life! You are a guy after my own heart, cruel and heartless!

    Christopher - The Libertarian solution only is valid should a nation find themselves in the situation GB found themselves in the late 60’s and 70’s. The heroin problem was so widespread the only solution was quasi-legalization, registration and madatory detox with forced taper off. The ones caught with product spent a long, long time in jail OR were enrolled in the detox program, their choice. Now, they have a much smaller situation that is manageable.

    DanD - Most the high quality grass that comes into the US comes over the Canuckistan border. Glad to see that your gov’t is getting real about it.

    Now, if only the US had real drug laws that did something besides stock up the prisons.

    OCM - What do you say to your own question?

    The Hobo

    Posted by Robohobo    United States   12/04/2005  at  06:35 PM  

  26. I’ll let the audacious Afroman speak for me. party

    Posted by Jester    United States   12/05/2005  at  01:11 PM  

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