Swift Boat Veterans Attacked By NY Times
Any more info on the report that the Silver Star was granted more than 10 years later, signed by SecNav Lehman?
Posted by Walter E. Wallis
08/20/2004 at 08:11 AM
http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/jkmilservice/Silver_Star.pdf
Posted by Walter E. Wallis
08/20/2004 at 08:22 AM
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Posted by D. Moroco
08/20/2004 at 08:45 AM
Allan
Since you are now in Huntsville, why dont you hop in the car and go see Dr Letson in person? He lives in Scottsboro, only about 30-40 miles east of you. The local paper interviewed him and I doubt he would mind talking to you. I think you will find him a genuine and truthful fellow, well respected in his community. My mom is a Letson and is his cousin, small world huh?Posted by barraza
08/20/2004 at 10:01 AM
Cool! Scottsboro is really close to me as you say. I’ll give him a call tonight or tomorrow and see if he will see me. Thanks.
I have to say, this argument that Kerry lied to get his medals seems a little dangerous. I mean, doesn’t that leave open the possibility that other people lied to get there medals during the war? Do we really want to be going around accusing people of falsly recieving medals from the military? It seems to me that the proper thing to do would be to let the reports filed by the military commanders on behalf of the soldiers be the final word on the subject.
If you want to be upset for what John Kerry said when he came back from Vietnam, that’s something else all together. Go ahead and focus on that if that’s how you feel. But ask yourself this - would people be criticizing Kerry’s war record this much if he never went to a war protest and never spoke of what he saw in Vietnam? Allen said himself that the reason the Swiftboat Veterans are going after Kerry’s record is because they’re pissed about what he did after the war.
Posted by Stacey
08/20/2004 at 12:02 PM
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Posted by Bob
08/20/2004 at 12:30 PM
Stacey,
You really missed the boat on all this, didn’t you?
Let me pose this scenario for you:
You and I work in an office as senior executives competing for a position as vice president which doubled pay from $100,000 a year to $200,000 plus stock options.
I go around telling the CEO, the other VPs, the President (and anyone else at the company that will listen) that years ago when I was a manager (and none of them were there yet) I was responsible for reducing costs, led projects with high visibility, found the best and the brightest and recruited them. I also go around saying I was responsible for the company’s adoption of a “quality management style” mentality which propelled it to being a forerunner in its line of work.
Yet I refuse to discuss anything I’ve done as a senior executive for the past 10 years.
Your friends get wind of this and having worked with me 20 years ago while I was manager, know that what I am saying is not true.
Meanwhile I continue to tout all I’d done as a manager without ever once going into detail about what I’d done in the intervening 10 years.
Tell me, Stacey, how happy would you be if I got my lawyers and other hired goons to go around shutting your friends up because I knew what they were saying was correct (or at the very least, almost totally correct.)
Don’t you think that before the selection committee made their choice that your friends’ voices should be heard and that I should publicly defend myself from their statements?
Or would you just roll over and allow me to get the job?
If so say the former, well, that’s exactly what is going on. Kerry keeps bringing up his war record. The same record that did not matter when Clinton ran. The same that did not matter when Gore ran. And awful unusual for someone who came back from the war and not only admitted to but accused his own fellow soldiers of commiting atrocities. We did not ask him to bring it up but as they say, “if you open the barn door, don’t be surprised if the horses come out.”
If you choose the latter, let us know where you work so we can tell your co-workers you’re a pushover.
Stacey,
Teh problem with your argument is that Kerry has steadfastly refused to sign a release of his military records. He claims to have put them on display at his campaign headquarters but hwo do we know that is all of them? All he has to do is sign a single military form (I forget the exact number form) and everyone, reporters, supporters and detractors can see what the official records show. This leads me to believe Kerry is covering up something. Maybe you can explain why Kerry doesn’t just clear all this up with one little signature? What is he hiding? President Bush has already ordered the Defense Department to release all of his records and those records have been eyeballed by every reporter in the Free World many times, including his pay records. It’s time for Kerry to give it up .. unless there are things he doesn’t want us to know.
I can understand what you’re saying about him not signing a waiver to have his records released, but historically there have been many presidential candidates who have kept certain aspects of his pre-candidate life private.
The truth is that other then the convention I actually haven’t heard much from the Kerry side about his service until after the Swiftboat Veterans came out with there ads. Of course, I’m in a state where neither candidate has been campaigning much. But most of what I’ve been reading about Kerry from the Kerry camp has actually been about his record in the Senate. Of course, that might be due to the sources I go to.
As far as what the Swiftboat Veterans are saying, I’ve been looking into it a bit today and they seem to be saying some things that sound a bit misleading to me. In the ad I saw on the internet they say that they are people who served with Kerry. When I heard that I got the impression that they served in his platoon or something like that. Turns out that most of them only mean that they served in Vietnam. From what I’ve seen, their’s two people in the Swiftboat group who actually interacted with him. One was the person who says he was the doctor but isn’t listed on Kerry’s medical records as the doctor of record. (Not that that means he didn’t treat Kerry, just that he wasn’t the primary doctor I suppose) He says that Kerry’s wound was superficial. If that’s the case, why did it stand out to him? I would think he’d see plenty of wounds, why would he remember Kerry’s?
The other person was in another Swiftboat during the battle where Kerry earned a couple of his battles. He claims that there was no gunfire but I was watching Fox news and they pointed out that his own citation stated that there was gunfire.
Basically what you’re doing is focusing on what these two people are saying (unless there is some evidence I’m not aware of). On top of that, these people have said repeatedly how much they dislike Kerry for what he did when he came back from the war, which does make their account a bit tainted. Especially considering the fact that they were the only people who remember the events in this way.
If I had to make a guess as to why Kerry doesn’t want to sign a release it might be that he doesn’t want to make what happened 30 years ago an issue of debate. I mean, if both sides work hard enough they can probably dig up dirt on either candidate. George Bush has even described himself “fallen angel” prior to being born again.
I really think that this website might do better if they focus on the more recent events. Just like what Vilmar said above. If you think Kerry’s record from the last ten years is dispicable, get him on that. If he really is focusing on portraying himself as a war hero, don’t fight him on it, ignore it. At this point in the game the people who are supporting Kerry who’s mind’s you might be able to change are seeing the attacks on his war record as meaningless and aren’t even considering it. But if you start talking about the bills he’s voted on that might convince people to change there mind.
Posted by Stacey
08/20/2004 at 02:28 PM
Lady, where the hell did you come from, anyway? Have you ever served in the military? Do you know anything about what it is these people go through. Give me a break with you ranting!
Posted by Wayne
08/20/2004 at 03:11 PM
Goddamit you really are beginning to irritate me, Stacey.
ANSWER THE FUCKING QUESTION I POSED!!!!
The Poodle brings up Vietnam OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER!! HE brings it up. Not the Republicans. Not the Vets. Not President Bush. Not me. Not Allan. KERRY opened that barn door months ago and continues to fling it open EVERY SINGLE TIME HE SPEAKS!!!
What are vets supposed to do? Bend over and take it up the ass from him?
Fuck your stupid argument about the last ten years. If Kerry wants to hang his hat on his service in Vietnam then he should answer ALL the allegations. He should release ALL his records. He should come clean.
I DO NOT want to hear from his cronies and minions defending him with so many versions of stories we no longer can keep them straight.
As for the past 20 years, we can’t attack what never happened. In other words, Kerry did NOTHING except be called “present” in the senate. No major bills and no major reforms were ever linked to him.
So stop this deflection bullshit you’ve been trained to do so well by the hacks in the Dummycrap party. ANSWER MY GODDAM question as to what you’d do if we were competing for jobs. Evade it and I’ll consider you just another barking moonbat and be tempted to ban you from this site. Answer it and you get to stay.
Sorry, I missed your post earlier. I thought I was responding to Allen.
As far as what you wrote above, I guess I would focus on telling the CEOs or what have you about the work I’ve done recently. It’s been my experience that good managers don’t really care too much about what employees did 20 years ago and if they go around bragging about it that’s an indication that they haven’t done much lately.
Like I said earlier, though, I really haven’t heard Kerry talk too much about his service outside of the convention other than in response to the swiftboat veterans. This could just be due to where I’m going for my news, though. Mostly I’ve been hearing him talk about the bills he’s sponsored and helped to get passed, like the McCain-Fienblum campaign reform bill and Vetrans Health Care Management bill. That last one is from ‘97 and greatly increased the medical benefits for vetrans of the Vietnam war suffering from agent orange poisoning.
On a more general note, I’d like to suggest that you consider being a little more careful with your language. If you’re purpose is to generate a constructive dialogue, you’re going to end up turning people off if you’re not careful. And I’d like to point out that I never meant to offend anyone hear. If I have offended someone, I apologize.
Posted by Stacey
08/20/2004 at 05:28 PM
Stacey,
Your lack of knowledge is exactly what Kerry is counting on. In Kerry’s unit there were many Swift Boats. Each of these boats held 5 crew and 1 officer. These boats nearly always operating in multiple boat formations. At the end of the day all of the boats of a particular unit went back to the same docking space. Now when most of these folks cited say they served with Kerry it’s because they were in other boats that went on missions with Kerry and generally had him and his boat in sight almost all the time (it was a team effort, each boat covering the other) so, you see they really did “serve together” in such closeness that their testimony is important. Even those that did not go on missions with Kerry interacted with him back on the docking station (I believe I’ve heard it was a barge the Swifts docked to). Thus, just like in a flying organization the other folks may have never been on a mission with him but served (and interacted) with him in the just slightly to the rear area. It’s not hard to take the measure of a man and find out who are the makers and who are the fakers when you live this close to people every day.
All of your points are addressed much better by others than by me. All I would add is that it’s okay to have an open mind, as long as it’s not so open your brains fall out. At some point the “benefit of the doubt” needs to run out.
Posted by RC
08/20/2004 at 06:28 PM
Stacey,
First off--no, you’ve offended no one here. We are not thin skinned. We dish it out and can take it, too.
I appreciate the reply but I must admit, in typical liberal fashion, you are once more attempting to use deflection tactics.
This post is about Kerry. Not about my language.
I really do not care what people think about my language. I do not write this blog to make people happy about my choice of words whether they be obscenities or profanities.
I write to make ME happy. Not you. We are the ones paying for this site (mostly Allan, BTW, with donations from some very nice people.)
I am passionate and get steamed easily (which is probably why Dottie fears my buying pistols this weekend!!) I do not care what others think. Take me for who and what I am, is my motto. The days of trying to make so many others happy is over just as the days of being concerned about what others think of me also over.
This blog is fun for me. It is a release for me. If Allan told me to stop using the sort of language I use I would tell him (politely) to go perform physically impossible unnatural sex acts on himself and walk away to find something else to do. (see, I didn’t say “go fuck himself")
I work when I choose. I quit when I am bored. For 40 years I busted my ass to get where I am today and no longer need to play silly politically correct games and concern myself about possibly offending someone’s thin-skinned sensibilities.
If my words offend you----leave.
I will say, however, that you do display spunk and tenacity---which I admire. You do not back down from a fight. Which is also good. Others would have left long ago after having been skewered by the various attack dogs we have on this site. You didn’t. That’s cool. So far you are passing our initiation ritual. BWAH HA HA!!!
I still do not agree with you concerning Kerry’s accompkishments and find your arguments not only specious but also bordering on the absurd. You expect me to believe you’ve really not heard some of what The Poodle’s said? It does not matter what media you listen to (assuming you listen to ABC/CBS/NBC/PBS. They all repeat the same thing. So where have you been?
Are you suffering from an inability to fully comprehend all that the media spews? Do you NOT listen to his speeches (I daresay I’ve heard VERY FEW where he DOES NOT mention his service in Vietnam or make some reference to being a vet.) This, BTW, from a guy who threw his ribbons?/medals? over the White House fence? This from a guy who accuses his fellow vets of war crimes and atrocities? You’ve never heard that either?
Get real, girl. Hang around with us long enough and we may yet have you seeing the light.
Vimar, you may love the Yankees (guess no one is perfect *grin*) but if nothing else you are a gentleman. You were much nicer than I would have been.
Posted by Guy S.
08/20/2004 at 08:14 PM
Vimar=Vilmar.....typos R us !
Posted by Guy S.
08/20/2004 at 08:16 PM
Memo to all: Vilmar and I share equally in the duties on this site. I don’t censor him and he doesn’t censor me. We are a team, dammit! I would never EVER think of chastising Vilmar for his language. As some of you know by now, I have been known to get fired up on occasion myself. We try to control our language but it is hard at times. The point, however, is that although I have put up most of the funding for this site and do most of the behind-the-scenes work on the “web stuff” (as Vilmar calls it), this is an equal partnership. Vilmar and I share a respect for each other and our opinions.
We also respect our readers opinions unless they become obnoxious and blatantly offensive. We both have thick skins and will listen to any Leftists who wander over here. We will try to toalk rationally to them but our patience is limited. People who try to deflect reason with the Democratic Party Line and misplaced arguments that have no basis in fact try our patience badly.
So what am I trying to say? We are both independent members of a team dedicated to trying to make sense out of the current despicable political mess this country finds itself in. We will gladly acknowledge other’s right to free speech but will not tolerate bullshit disguised as independent thought. So make sense with your Leftist arguments if you’re a Donk visiting here. Otherwise we’ll just turn you off and ignore you.
And I’ll echo Vilmar’s earlier thoughts ... if you don’t like the language there are millions of other blog sites out there you can hang out in.
This site is neither sponsored by, paid for, or promoted by either party. We believe in the truth, reason, logic and the ability of the majority of Americans to recognize bullshit when they read it.
That is all. At ease, troops.
What if. What if Kerry does win the election and then he abandons his “Band of Brothers” like he did 35 years ago in Vietnam. I wonder if the truth would come out from these guys about the real Lt Jg Kerry.
Leadership...being a leader. Being a commander of a Swift Boat like Lt. Jg Kerry was means he was the leader of his men. He was responsible for the training, morale, fitness, well being, and most of all the lives of those men under his command. He was the Officer in Charge and had the responsibility. His job and duty was to see these guys made it through the war and accomplished the missions assigned to them. On that Swift Boat he was the Old Man, the boss, the CO. How did Lt Jg Kerry accept his responsibilities? Lets see, the first chance he got he left his men high and dry. Your fighting a war and you have put your life in this guys hands and suddenly, without warning, he is gone. Not because of higher headquarters orders but because he found a way out in the system and took it. He didn’t have to take it but he did. How many NCO’s and Officers could have taken early returns on deployments but refused because they wouldn’t leave their men behind. I once had to order a young NCO back to the states while on a deployment because his wife was due to have their baby very soon and there was the chance of complications. He didn’t want to leave because his aircraft and people were still there and he felt his place was with them. BTW, baby and wife came through it ok.
Now I want you to put yourself in the places of these enlisted men on Kerry’s Swift Boat. Here you are stuck in this forsaken country for at least one year and an officer, a rich kid from an influential family, is your Skipper and suddenly after 4 months he is gone, on his way back to the states. What would you have said or done 35 years ago when this happened? Being an enlisted man myself, I know what these men would have said and it wasn’t “good luck”. Those guys, the ones on stage with him now, would have probably fragged him in a heart beat...fragging is when the troops kill their own officers because they are untrustworthy. And then, to top it off, this officer, your former leader is telling the world that YOU murdered innocent people, YOU were war criminal, YOU are a lowlife. You tell me how you would have felt if you were one of those men? Your C.O. just betrayed you to the world and fabricated falsehoods to further his goals. And, now tell me why those men are now standing with him on stage, supporting him, and singing his praises? We all know the answer, they are either being bought off or are most likely promised some type of reward or compensation. If Kerry wins they feel they will have direct access to the White House. That is a very powerful thing to have, especially to someone whose life has basically been a nobody. I hope these guys realize that if Kerry looses that the Democrats will not remember them for their faithful service to John Kerry during his presidential bid. No sir, they will remember them as the baby killers of Vietnam because once their “war hero” is out of the picture, they will go back to hating anything connected with the military and Vietnam. It’s funny though how his fellow officers, the ones who stayed and led their men through the war, are not singing his praises but condemning his actions. The leaders, the ones who cared for their men and did their time in-country, his peers and his superiors, all say he is a liar and cannot be trusted to lead as he is not a leader.
Posted by Bob
08/21/2004 at 12:03 AM
I’d like to comment to what Bob has said.
I can certainly appreciate your sentiments. I really can’t say that I know all the details about why John Kerry left and why the people from the boat he commanded are still supporting him. I do know that those men have been supporting him since he first ran for Senate back in the 80’s. I don’t like the idea of just assuming that people have been paid off just becuase you can’t understand how they would support someone. That’s very dimeaning to the soldiers, in my opinion and a bit conspiritory. Following your logic I could say ‘Of course everyone from the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth would be since they were all mad at Kerry for what he said when he came back from the war’. You’re sort of jumping to conclusions here.
Plus, I have to ask this. You have a choice of voting for someone who voluntarily joined the service and went to Vietnam and then left after four months, or someone who joined the Air Force National Guard instead of going to Vietnam with a running mate who got himself 5 defferments. Which one do you think shows more integrity?
Posted by Stacey
08/21/2004 at 08:52 AM
About the deferment of Chaney. How about talking first about the Golden Boy of the Democratic Party, Bill Clinton. How come it was ok for him to actually dodge the draft but not for Dick Chaney to get legal government deferments. Let’s look at Bill for a moment:
- Clinton ordered to report for induction on July 28, 1969
- Clinton dishonors order to report and is not inducted into the military
- Clinton reclassified 1-D after enlisting in the United States Army Reserves on August 07,1969 under authority of Col.E.Holmes
- Clinton signs enlistment papers and takes oath of enlistment
- Clinton fails to report to his duty station at the University of Arkansas ROTC, September 1969.
- Clinton reclassified 1-A on October 30, 1969, as enlistment with Army Reserves is revoked by Colonel E. Holmes and Clinton now AWOL and subject to arrest under Public Law 90-40 (2)(a) “registrant who has failed to report....remain liable for induction
I don’t think we need to go on any more on Clinton. So like tens of thousands of other young men, Dick Chaney applies to the government and gets a LEGAL deferment and goes to college. So what is the problem? How fast the Demorats forget Clinton’s dishonor.Now who would I vote for, the guy who went into the Navy or the one who went into the Air National Guard (ANG)? Since I now firsthand that joining the ANG is not a guarantee of getting out of Vietnam or any other deployment (Desert Story, Iraq Freedom, Afghanistan) I guess that throws that disqualifying reason out the window. I would most likely vote for GW Bush as he didn’t dishonor his uniform, service, or those he served with....Kerry did after he got back to the states.
Now a question for you. If John Kerry is a man of honor, integrity and high moral character, how come he failed to put a stop to the atrocities he claims to have witnessed in Vietnam? He was duty bound, as a Naval Officer, to report those atrocities to his superior officers immediately. I know it would have been hard to do and would have put him in danger but the fact is, he didn’t do a thing till he got back into the United States and was safe in the Halls of Congress and behind the skirts of Jane Fonda. I wonder if the reason he failed to report the atrocities is because they never took place as he said they did? John Kerry was a Naval Officer and he knew his duty and failed to perform it....that is the bottom line. Based on his past performance I doubt John Kerry would do his duty as President of the United States?
Posted by Bob
08/21/2004 at 09:57 AM
How did we start talking about Clinton? I don’t think what he did was any better.
As for Bush in the guard, at the time the Air Force national guard was excluded from duty in Vietnam. The Guard was kept state side to protect the continent. But if you really want to compare service records, what about Bush not showing up for a physical which kept him from flying for months. His duties reverted to studying flight manuals on the weekend.
Bob, one more thing. Anyone who says that war crimes didn’t occur during Vietnam is living in a dream. War crimes occur in every war. It’s unavoidable. The very idea of having rules of war is pretty ridiculous if you ask me. If a soldier sees a six year old with a gun he’s supposed to just say hi? It’s a soldier’s job to defend himself and his unit through whatever means necessary. As far as I can tell Kerry was just reporting on things which happen during every war.
Posted by Stacey
08/21/2004 at 12:17 PM
NY Times: “They were funded by...”
Irrelevant. They could have been funded by Vladimir Ilyitch Ulyanov and Adolph Schicklegruber and it would not change their ALLEGATIONS one whit!
Answer the questions: Did Kerry exaggerate? Did Kerry lie? Did Kerry calumniate his fellow Americans? Did Kerry omit important details?
Posted by Sharps Shooter
08/23/2004 at 06:47 AM
