SCOTUS Confronts God Today
The ten commandments are most definitely not the law here. Only three are enshrined as legal edicts; stealing, murdering, and bearing false witness. It is not illegal to ignore the sabbath. It is not illegal to have other gods, or no gods, before or after. It is not illegal to commit adultery. It is not illegal to make graven images. It is not illegal to disrespect your parents. And it is not illegal to covet that which is your neighbors, be it wife or property. In fact, some of these are expressly excluded under the freedom from religion clause, specificly the no other gods and graven image pronouncements.
Nor does the appearance of Moses holding an unreadable pair of tablets on the facade of the Supreme Court building signify anything. Mohammed is there too, as well as several other figures.
I’m an atheist and an American and a Conservative and I don’t like having your religion stuffed down my throat one damn bit. All churches should be taxed just like any other therapeutic organization. Charitable foundations still have to pay property tax, why not churches? Nor do I trust in god, I want it off my money. The Pledge? Newdow is right.
If you cannot state your case without resorting to the ridiculous assertion that the bible says it is so your argument is very, very weak. Onanism is a sin in the bible. Should that be illegal?
Be all the Christian you want but keep it completely out of government. A very significant amount of people in this country (variously 10-20%) identify themselves as Atheist or Agnostic. We pay taxes too and we don’t like it when our money is spent or policies directed for religious reasons. I do believe I recall some positions taken by yourself regarding the expenditure of union funds on campaigns that the membership doesn’t overwhelmingly support. Same thing for me here.
Under no circumstances should the phrase “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” appear anywhere on any government entity or edifice. It is a heinous and derogatory demand and I say a rousing fuck you to anyone who would try to force me to hew to their particular delusion.
Posted by commander0
03/02/2005 at 07:27 PM
This is gonna be fun.
Posted by commander0
03/02/2005 at 07:28 PM
DAMN, commander0! You really know how to pick a fight. No one is trying to stuff their religion down your throat. And displaying the Ten Commandments in a courthouse is simply a validation of where our laws come from. The majority of people in this country believe in God (of some kind or another). In fact, the majority of people in America believe in the Christian God. How does their belief offend you or attack you in any way? I don’t understand where you’re coming from here at all. The Ten Commandments were supposed to be taken by the Jews as LAW but Christians take them more as MORAL GUIDELINES. They pertain more to morality than to actual law but if laws don’t have a basis in morality then what, pray tell, should they be based on.
No one is forcing you to “trust” in God either. Touching currency doesn’t automatically brainwash you into becoming a Christian. Feel free to trust in turnip greens if that is what you think will get you through the night.
Why can’t you just shrug your shoulders and let it go with a calm thought like, “Dang! Those Christians sure a wacky bunch to still believe in God in this day and age!” - and ignore it?
I have absolutely nothing against atheists or agnostics. It’s their life, and their beliefs are not mine to either censor or comdemn. Why not return the favor?
Can we sing KOOMBAYAH now?
Commmander,
You are missing one VERY FUCKING BIG point insofar as churches and taxation go.
That being: churches are exempt from taxation because they can not make political statements, contributions to political parties, etc. Their congregations can but NOT the churches (which have shitpots full of money.)
If you insist on taxing churches then that old saw comes back: taxation w/o representation and you MUST accord churches the right to be politically active.
Do you REALLY want that?
I reckon that’s a Pandoro’s box we’d all rather stay closed.
Somehow I do not get a warm and fuzzy knowing the Catrholic church with their BILLIONS of dollars could sway an election in the US. (and I am a catholic)
What about you?
Vilmar, your kidding right about churches not being politicly active? Of course they are. Have been for centuries. My point about the taxation was that even charitable, non taxed organizations have to pay property tax on their property. Except churches. They should receive the same, and no more, tax benefits than any other not for profit organization and have the same strictures in re political speech.
And Allan, I can’t let it go. The ten commandments is not the source of our law, I laid it out above. Only 3 of 10 are law. I’ll bet that Hammurabi’s code is more cogent to the discussion of where our laws come from. I’ll say it again. The phrase “Thou shalt have no other gods before me” should never appear in a government building or on any government document. It really is the killer that totally disqualifies any other argument and that stands foursquare in opposition to our Constitution. If you want to have the 9 commandments, I’ll start chipping away at those but this one is so obvious it should brook no argument from thinking people. If you want to print the 3 commandments then I will not complain at all. It is no longer a religious text, it is simply a code of behavior that I support.
Be as whacky as want but do it on your own time and in your own place.
Posted by commander0
03/02/2005 at 08:12 PM
The REAL problem I have with commander0’s argument is that if we scrubbed and scraped off everything that might offend anybody, in this diverse nation of ours, from every public building we would have nothing but blank monolithic blocks everywhere. I’m sick and tired of people getting offended by every little thing that comes along.
Our source of law encompasses all kinds or texts: The Code Of Hammurabi, The Ten Commandments, the Code Napoleane, the Magna Carta, etc. Why pick on Christians who comprise the majority of people in this country? Why can’t you just ignore it if it offends you?
I am offended by people who are so easily offended. That includes you, commander0!
Why are your feelings and your sensitivities more important than mine?
"Separation of Church & State” is from the Federalist Papers, not the constitution. However it is a good idea. The law forbids religious oaths and state-supported churches. BAD FOR BOTH. Fill disclosure: I am a Christian.
I think state-dictated prayer at school is over that boundary. So is teaching creationism—unless you include the Stork-Theory in biology of reproduction. Mentioning creationism is OK. Let the Christmas Manger scenes stay on private property.
Ten Commandments? Certainly OK. The ACLU thinks mention or reference to religion is endorsement. It ain’t. State supported religion is not a risk we face—UNLES THE TERRORISTS WIN.
Posted by Oink
03/02/2005 at 08:54 PM
At no point did I use the phrase “separation of church and state”. And I am not saying I am “offended” by your religion. I do find it offensive when people like Joe Lieberman say that I can not be a moral person if I don’t believe in god (he actually said that when he was running with Gore). But not one of you has actually addressed my big issue, which is that only 3 of the ten are law and one, at least, flies directly in the face of the edict that Congress shall pass no law respecting religion. That commandment is the one that says “thou shalt have no other gods before me”. Please, any one of you, address that directly.
Posted by commander0
03/02/2005 at 09:57 PM
Question for Bob F. Can you read? Everything you posted is of absolutely no relevance to the points I raised. I never said anything about a manger. Or tax money spent on the ten commandments. You want to stop wasting taxpayer money on these lawsuits, Stop putting them in government buildings ! Just say no. The ten commandments is not the law here. Attend. Only 3 of them are. The others are bullshit as government regulation. Or would you like to see all of them be law? That is what I’m afraid of.
Posted by commander0
03/02/2005 at 10:26 PM
Commander, Please get over your overly sensitive feelings.
I could give a rat’s ass aobut 3 or 5 or 7 or 10 that feel or do not feel are relevant.
All 10 are a good start for a person’s moral compass.
You’re an atheist? Fine, substitute God with a turnip or speck of dust you consider to be important in your life. Hell, substitute God with “mom” if it makes you happy. As Bob said, having them posted does not make them law.
But I am tired (really fucking tired) of having to deal with people’s overwrought sense of offense over any little thing and then having to modify my life to accomodate that. For the same reason you do not like “my” religion crammed down your throat so do I not like having atheism crammed down mine.
And this whole victimhood thing has gotten way past being old.
Give it a rest.
Commander...another major point in your discussion about the Church being exempt from property taxes, is that all other non profit organizations have the right to make political contributions, the Church does not.
I know you will attempt to justify this by stating that the Church Leaders sway their congregations to certain political preferences....I answer with Jesse Jackson, John Kerry going to Church together while on the campaign trail. Seems to work to everyone’s advantage
If you’d have asked a 13th Century European Christian about separation of C&S you’d have gotten the same uncomprehending blank stare as you’d get from a Muslim fundamentalist today. Islam is more of a social establishment than Christianity. i.e. it is more of a behavioral set of rules, whereas Christianity is more about the internal nature of the individual. The Book of Acts is much about Xianity becoming separated & distinct from Judaism.
The 10 Commandments contain rules for duties you owe to others—and rules about what you owe to God & yourself. The first is enforceable, the second is not. Jesus’ conversation with his fellow Rabbi (Jewish lawyer) suggests that no one can get one right without getting the other. (Love God with all your heart, mind, strength AND THE SECOND IS LIKE UNTO IT you shall love your neighbor as yourself.) (Did you get that? You gotta love yourself.)
Government, when it comes to religion, is well know for getting the words right, but not the music. Religion isn’t so hot at running the government, either.
Dennis Miller said the ACLU is famous for suing people who put up Nativity Scenes, but defending the guy who fucks the sheep in the scene.
The 10 Commandments are a big part of our American cultural heritage and, unlike a cruficix, are not so tied to specific religious observance as to be over the line. Like the Masonic symbols on our dollar bill, this subject could stand a lot of ignoring. I’d compare it to the doctor who, knowing the patient intends to commit suicide, quietly prescribes a whole bunch of morphine to a terminal cancer patient racked with pain. Don’t make an issue out of it. Ignore it. Don’t sweat the small shit.
Posted by Oink
03/03/2005 at 05:39 AM
OCB: That’s a problem for us humans, isn’t it? A person who does not have a ‘code’ or some belief that transcends himself isn’t worth a damn.
The problem: that belief is often communism or Islamicism.
Posted by Oink
03/03/2005 at 11:23 AM
This ought to piss off Commander to no end. I found it on Vox Day’s blog:
Read the linked/referenced article, too, about how atheism is declining worldwide.
You gotta love this quote: “But most atheists are hopelessly irrational, being moral parasites wholly dependent upon the very belief systems in which they claim no faith.”
Soon atheists will start feeling just like the Dummycraps are beginning to feel now: confised, lost and wondering, “what the fuck hit us?”
I don’t know if atheists are more irrational. But they’re certainly no less.
I had a short debate with one about Hitler being a Christian. There was a confidential letter from Hitler, saying that we have to play along with Xianity for now, because we can’t re-install worship of the “Old Norse Gods”, which would be more manly. The best course, he said, was to use the parts of the churches that suit us.
It made no change in the athiest’s firm opinion that Hitler was a Xian. I dropped him off at the lollypop farm.
Posted by Oink
03/03/2005 at 11:44 AM
I make no claim whatsoever that being an atheist conveys an aura of rationality. I fully acknowledge that atheism is a faith, as opposed to agnosticism. I never said I was offended, except by Joe Lieberman who stated that by dint of my being an atheist I am immoral. I stake my morality on the golden rule that you should treat others as you would like to be treated. I don’t require a fearsome imaginary friend to scare me straight. Atheism is NOT a license to kill. Fuck, there is far more killing done in the name of god than in the name of nogod. You all know this to be true.
As to the piecemeal approach to the commandments I thought they were a whole. In for a penny in for a pound. The argument that they are the law, and I mean government, legal, throw you in jail law, is fallacious. Only 3 are. Aside from the directly god related 4 someone mentioned there are 3 that are also not law. Respect your parents, do not commit adultery, and do not covet that which is your neighbors. Your neighbor has been beating the shit out of his wife, who you love because she is a saint, but since your heinous wife hasn’t signed the divorce papers yet you have to spend time with your love in your mother’s crack house, who constantly cackles that you’re no better than she is. No indictable offense there. The commandments are NOT NOT NOT law here. The argument that they are the moral foundation of our nation is utterly ridiculous. Put them in your churches all you want. Live by them all you want. But the minute you start stoning people for adultery is when I start throwing punches myself. I have gone to dozens of bar mitzvahs (my wife and stepsons are jewish) and I spend most of the 2+ hrs reading the Torah/Old Testament. I call it “gathering evidence”.
I knew this would be a good one. I have a great deal of respect for most people here, even Captain Kangaroo, but I do sense a level of intellectual incest that should be occasionally shaken by some foreign spermata. I am an American first, an atheist second and a conservative third. I think my conservativism comes from my atheism, to tell you the truth. Coombayah, you fuckers
Posted by commander0
03/03/2005 at 07:22 PM
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/tyrants.htm
See above link—bloodiest tyrant of 20th Century. Conservatively, 64 Million were murdered by Stalin, Hitler, & Mao. Not counting purely war deaths.
Commander, the barest thought and research could have told you that religion did not cause the most deaths. I’ve been an atheist. It’s no excuse for making silly statements. If you continue to make up stuff, I won’t debate or discuss with you. Your friend, OINK
Posted by Oink
03/03/2005 at 07:42 PM
P.S. I’m harder on dipshit Christians who start drooling about Creation
ScienceBullshit. ”Shut up Man, they’ll think idiocy is a requisite to Xianity.”Law: it means two things 1. descriptive 2. prescriptive. 1. E=MCsquared. Describes a fact of nature, helps explain how it operates. No punishment for breaking them, just results. (like airplane crashes) 2. Prescriptive—Thou Shalt or Shalt Not—or we’ll punish you. Some of these laws are universal among all people at all times. (e.g. child-rape & murder). Others are artificial (filing taxes on April 16th.) (assuming no weekend or holiday)
Posted by Oink
03/03/2005 at 07:59 PM
I didn’t say “cause” I said “justified” (well kind of, “in the name of” will stand here for “justified") And, you may make a reasonable argument that Hitler didn’t kill Jews because HE was religious. But I defy you to point out one example where any killing was done in the name of atheism. Come on man, you’re better than that.
Posted by commander0
03/03/2005 at 08:50 PM
In a just slightly unrelated manner http://iowahawk.typepad.com/iowahawk/ has just weighed in on the court’s use of international standards. My fave, “this decision opens the way for legalized stonings at arranged gay marriages.”
Posted by commander0
03/03/2005 at 09:00 PM
Commander. Good beginning. Clarification from you please, was Marxism theistic or atheistic? (I’ll stick with facts if you will)
OINKY
Posted by Oink
03/03/2005 at 09:08 PM
Marxism is atheistic. I don’t know that Marx advocated the forbidding of religion but I know he thought it was a population control device that was oft abused ("Religion is the opiate of the masses"). I personally can find no disagreement with this statement even though I think everything else he championed was naive. Even a blind squirrel.......
Posted by commander0
03/03/2005 at 09:35 PM
BLIND PIG!! TRUST ME>>>READ MY AVATAR>>>
Marxism came from the anti-democratic tradition—do not trust me - look it up: socialism is anti-democratic root and branch.
ASSIGNMENT: Now, let us compare and contrast SOCIALISM --with the myths of the Garden of Eden AND The Tower of Babel. I use “myth” to mean a TRUTH told in the form of a story.
FEEL FREE TO STEP RIGHT IN HERE AND ASSIGN ME A PROJECT. /s/ Bro. PorkChop
Posted by Oink
03/03/2005 at 10:21 PM
OCM: Your assignment is 1. to consider your 6 senses, and the degree in which they are limited and guided by your belief system.
2. What is the rational basis of rationality? (Hint: it is a priori assumptions)
3. Explain your six senses in terms of Einstein’s Relativity, i.e. the slowing of time and the squeezing of space as one approaches the speed of light. Edify me as to how your senses compute a super-massive black hole.
P.S. If you don’t accept Einstein, please stand next to this here atomic bomb and wait until I am far, far away, and press this ...
NEXT LESSON: Quantum Mechanics and String Theory as they relate to THE Big Bang. Oh yeah, and your senses…
If you have questions for me, step right up to the
bongplate..Posted by Oink
03/03/2005 at 10:34 PM
You have a beautiful avatar, though HIS eyes are a bit too alert for my liking, vicious brute that he is. I’m gonna say this again. I am very much the conservative. I am most definitely not the only conservative atheist. See http://ravingatheist.com/
Hmmm. Socialism and the garden of Eden. Let’s see. Adam had everything provided for him until one day he asked too many questions so he was banished and sent out to fend for himself. Hmmmm. THAT seems to be the way all socialist states end up. Totalitarian. My way or the highway.
Babel I don’t know so well (er, really at all. Oh wait, was it about the arrogance of trying to learn about god and how such impertinence will be struck down? “Thou shalt not question me”?) HMMMMM. Very disturbing.Project for you. Find any predictive value in a religious belief, i.e. sacrifice a pig (sorry) get good crops (or win at craps for that matter). The most I ever got out of a pig sacrifice was a full stomach (and mmmmm it was good.....oops, sorry again, no offense meant).
You guys are the best for keeping this out of the realm of screaming stupidity. Thanks for listening.
Posted by commander0
03/03/2005 at 10:57 PM
very brief—
The key to the Garden of Eden ‘Myth’ (see above) is YOU SHALL BE AS GODS. I wonder if this myth recalls our animal existence—the lack of foreknowledge of death, no anxiety??? No matter.
The Tower of Babel myth—well, ummm, CONSIDER THIS: Suppose that all people on earth stopped fighting, got a common language, and sat down together to make plans. What could we not do??Socialism tries to make these two myths real. VERY IMPORTANT LESSON—everytime we have tried to create heavon on earth we have instead created hell.
2nd lesson—EVERY human endeavor turns to shit. You must keep a constant eye on it, because it will not automatically go right. The worst men with the worst motives will rise to the top. Why is this?
Posted by Oink
03/04/2005 at 09:19 AM
Sorry I was gone all day and could not pass along OCM’s message.
EVERYONE has a philosophy, unless they spend 12 hours every day figuring out how to act—cause they have to start from scratch without a philosophy.
Most people just don’t know what theirs is. They would be embarassed if they knew what it was, spelled out.
It does not have to be exotic or complicated.
Posted by Oink
03/04/2005 at 04:26 PM
03/02/2005 at 11:05 PM
