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PC #3 Advice Needed

 
 


Posted by Drew458    United States   on 03/18/2013 at 01:24 PM   
 
  1. Here’s the thing. If you want value for money spent go with Dell but go to the return store,not the new outlet. Same machines,same goodies and less money. Same warrenty bla bla bla. That said, you should know that most HP units are calibrated to run slow as default so they are not as good as a Dell box would be in the same catagory.
    You can also buy a No OS box and install whatever OS you want( I did this and run XP myself). You can get Win 7 or XP Pro or XP for around a C note most anywhere.
    Or, you can do the Craigslist thing and score a nice newish gamer box from a guy who lost his job and will sell all that goodness for a song to make his house payments.
    One more thing, consider buying a box with a Mobo that support more high end Procs than what is in the box at purchase because after a year or two the High end Proc is now the bargain and ,in the case of AMD chips, can be plugged in without requiring a reformat.
    Good Luck Drewski.
    cool smile

    Posted by Rich K    United States   03/18/2013  at  03:05 PM  

  2. Here is a good example of what you can find in the outlet store at Dell for just $600:
    http://outlet.us.dell.com/ARBOnlineSales/Online/SecondaryInventorySearch.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dfb&cs=28&puid=43c86dd7

    Posted by Rich K    United States   03/18/2013  at  03:45 PM  

  3. Have you thought about building your own machine? I always build my own. I recently made a very quick microITX machine using an Intel i3-2100, 8GB g.skill RAM and a Kingston 120GB SSD that runs Win7 Pro. Besides gaming (which I do none of with this machine) it performs as well as my 1 year old i7-950 with 24GB Patriot RAM and 1TB platter drive (both machines score in the high 7s using Windows Experience Index, except the graphics score on my i7 machine, with a dedicated GPU, scores a 7.9 while the i3, with no card, scores a 5.6). And I spent (including 24” LCD monitor, BT mouse & keyboard, shipping and all) about $800. The case and hardware alone, not counting peripherals, were about $550. And the thing is tiny (hides behind my desk) and whisper quiet (I used an Antec ISK310 case w/ onboard PSU).

    Maybe you’re not into building this stuff yourself, but you could build such a machine that would drastically outperform the corporate brand computers and be far less expensive if you felt inclined to do the assembly and formatting yourself. Like Rich said, you could even get just the hardware and reuse your OS from the current machine—as long as it is WinXP or later. But OS software is cheap (relatively) anymore—$100 for 7 Pro (Unless you plan to get a touch panel interface, I am not a fan of Win8. Great with touch screen, a pain without it). Also, most Intel architectures can be hot swapped like the AMD—so you could get an entry-level Intel CPU now and swap it in a year without a reformat as long as it is the same socket and chip architecture (i.e. both CPUs are socket LGA1155, 1366, or whatever. AMD sockets are AM3, AM3+, etc. Same idea though). I buy from Newegg.com—good service, competitive prices, easy returns, great selection. My experience has been top-notch with them, for what it’s worth.

    Good luck sir. Let us know how the search goes.

    Risk

    Posted by Risk    United States   03/18/2013  at  04:02 PM  

  4. Drew I don’t think the i7 is worth the extra over an i5 Intel are getting to the point where the hardware is not being challenged anymore. That said my current pc is a core i3 and is as fast as I need it to be. The one thing I did invest in was an ssd (120Gb) I could have fitted an internal conventional drive but these days I store all my files on network attached storage. With an ssd the boot times are very impressive. I use Win7 I cant stand Win8 (though the hideous tile interface can be circumvented). The other aspect to an ssd equipped pc is its virtually silent.

    Posted by LyndonB    United Kingdom   03/18/2013  at  04:10 PM  

  5. I have nothing against building a system, but I really don’t know where to start, what I’d need, or where to go. I did look at a slew of ASUS mobos online; there are so many different models I don’t have a clue which is better. I may even be able to get my hands on the 7 pro OS for free ... i know a network guy at bowling. Is there a “just add chip, board, and drives” kit with all the screws, spacers, cables, back plates, fans, etc?

    The outlet link doesn’t work, but I got there via Google. “deals” on the 8500 Special, which is a nice PC but grossly overpriced for what you get. I was looking at the base 8500, which is half the price and the difference is the SSD and a bit of RAM. Even with the “discount” it’s still overpriced. So are their Alienware PCs. But it’s good to take a look.

    I think I’d prefer to buy something new compared to a used PC from the want ads, as it would be under warranty. And a factory machine is put together properly and set up, push the on button and go. At least one would hope.

    Lyndon, I came to that conclusion quite a number of years ago. I could not tell the performance difference between this 733Mhz machine and the 1Ghz machines that were just hitting the market in 1999. OTOH, I am also aware that the peripherals have a big impact, and SSD and top-notch HDs make a big big difference. So does a primo graphics card IF you run up against heavy graphics. Playing Mah-Jong, Solitaire, or looking at pics of Missy SoSoft is not challenge even for this old card. BUT, and like the Mooch it’s a big old but, BUT if the cost difference between an i3 and an i7 is small, why not go for it? Who knows what the future will need, and I hope to get another decade from whatever machine I find.

    Posted by Drew458    United States   03/18/2013  at  05:41 PM  

  6. Lyndon - network attached storage?? Whaz dat? Is that a Cloud thing? (cloud scares me, coming from a data security background)

    Posted by Drew458    United States   03/18/2013  at  05:42 PM  

  7. There are DIY systems labelled as “bare bones.” These systems are available in various states of completion—some are mobo, CPU, and HDD, others are case, PSU, and mobo, etc. This may help take some of the guess work out of designing and making your own PC, but it also limits your choices to that of whatever the builder thought should go together.

    One surefire way to narrow your choices and still get the cream of the crop is to use the “best reviews” feature to sort specific categories of equipment. There are 6 items necessary for an all-purpose PC: case, PSU, CPU, mobo, RAM, and HDD (I suppose you could include an optical drive, if you still needed CD/DVD/Bluray capability; in that case there are 7 categories). For each category, decide what your ideal needs are, sort the options according to those needs, then review the top 3 or 4 items in the “best reviews” list. For instance, let’s say you want a smaller-than-normal desktop machine. A quick read of the cases tutorial will give you an idea what the different sizes mean (ATX, Mid ATX, etc.). Then you can sort the cases by the size you want, view the list by reviews, and pick the one that you like the design, the cost, and the reviews. The added bonus is that you have concurrently sorted out some of the mobo options—if you select a Micro ATX case, you know you can only fit a Micro ATX mobo inside of it, thus giving you your first search parameter when picking a mobo. Next you might pick a CPU. First, decide if you want Intel or AMD. Then sort by “best reviews” and pick the most popular one that fits your budget. As Lyndon and I both suggested, an i3 is a pretty potent CPU for all but the most demanding tasks. They are also very reasonably priced. But an i5 or i7 might be only a few dollars more, and thus make more sense. Make sure to find a CPU that supports video processing, since you won’t be getting a dedicated GPU card (both Intel and AMD build CPUs that process video).

    Once you have a CPU picked out, you can apply the socket architecture of said CPU to the mobo. Now you know you need a mobo that fits your case (search parameter 1) and a mobo that fits your CPU (search parameter 2). Enter those criteria, list by review, and you’ll narrow down your mobo list pretty effectively.

    The same goes for RAM—your mobo will take a certain kind of RAM (DDR3, PC1600, etc.) and have a certain number of slots for the RAM. Sort the RAM options by the physical parameters of your mobo, and the only choice you really have to make is how much memory you actually want. 8 GB is sufficient for all but the most demanding of applications, usually. Next would be HDD, and here you need to select a type (SSD or platter) and size. As Lyndon said, with so much of our computing happening in the cloud, physical memory is far less important than it used to be. I use a 120GB SSD with a 500GB platter drive for backups (except for my gaming machine, the i7-950, that has a 1TB platter drive. But that’s a different application). Most everything I do is stored in the cloud so that I can access it from anywhere. If that concerns you (and I understand the concern), get a larger HDD. The problem is that big SSDs are expensive—120GB tends to be about the limit of affordable SSDs. I might suggest getting a SSD for a primary boot drive with a large platter drive for physical storage. That’s slightly more money (because you’re buying 2 HDDs instead of one) but serves the ends of fast computing with loads of on-site storage.

    Lastly is PSU and optical drives. you already know what size case you have, so you’ll know what physical size PSU and CD/DVD drive you can fit. Sort your options by those sizes, and select an item based on reviews. A 500 watt PSU is ample for a machine without a dedicated GPU card, and you might even get away with a 300-350 watt and never have an issue, depending on the CPU and HDD you pick.

    That’s it! The hardware all comes with screws, cables, molex plugs, etc. to help you out. you’ll need some basic screwdrivers and zip ties to finish the job. The hard part is loading the OS—if that’s not a problem for you, then you’re golden.

    If you’re worried about warranties, you might also consider looking at hardware that comes with longer than standard coverage. many ASUS products have long warranties; EVGA offers mobos with lifetime warranties. Most RAM is lifetime warranty. Corsair PSUs can have up to a 7 year warranty. There are doubtlessly others that have excellent warranty programs. you might look briefly at the warranty section of the item listing and see if one option is more appealing in that regard than another.

    I know I’ve written a lot here, but I genuinely like building my own machines. It’s fun, it gives you a sense of accomplishment, and you can get a lot more PC for your money—and one that fits your needs exactly. Whatever you decide, I’m sure you’ll pick something great (whether you get a custom PC or a branded one). but if a custom PC sounds appealing and I can be of any more specific assistance, don’t hesitate to ask. Good luck!

    Risk

    Posted by Risk    United States   03/18/2013  at  06:56 PM  

  8. I hated that my Dell died when it was only 15 months old.  “Seven beeps of death.” [Of course I didn’t have the extended warranty!] Dell was happy to fix it for $399. OR $600. depending on whether it was the motherboard or something else [don’t recall what].  When, for $700. I could get a brand new laptop - and I did.  An Asus.  I bought a “floor model” because it had Windows 7 on it and I didn’t want to go to 8.  That computer DIED a horrible death in less than 24 hours.  Right back to Best Buy [a store I actually hate!], with it - I found another Asus I liked [of course, more expensive and with Windows 8], the Geek Squad moved all my data over, Best Buy apologized profusely, and gave me a $100. price break on the second Asus.  HATE HATE HATE WINDOWS 8!!!

    I don’t buy a computer [laptop, not desktop] for the reasons that most people do.  All of the gigastuff, ram, etc.  I buy it for the “feel of the keyboard.” Seriously.  If I can’t feel like I’m “typing” I can’t use the laptop.  I hate my husband’s Toshiba for that very reason.  Keyboard feels funny.  This Asus has been fine, so far, but for W8.  I actually looked on-line for Windows 7 this weekend… I may have to spend the $100. or $150. for it, I hate W8 that much.

    Being technically challenged [ha! understatement, that!!] is tough…

    Posted by BT in SC    United States   03/18/2013  at  07:20 PM  

  9. Don’t overlook the AMD option, Drew. Since you aren’t a power gamer, you can get away with a 4 core, or an 8 core if you want a little more bang.

    I also agree. Windoze 8 is a steaming pile of wombat crap. I would rather go back to Windoze ME. I procured a copy of 7 to save me from the drabness that is 8.

    Building is also an option, all you need is a CPU, Motherboard, case, HDD, Vid card, memory, and an optical drive. God help you if you need a floppy. My best advice is NOT to skimp on the case. If the case has no power supply, I would advise about 600 watts so the system can be upgraded without burps.
    It’s not hard, just remember; RTFM. Read the F’ing Manual.The motherboard books usually gives a step by step installation for most of the innards and the case ~should~ tell you how to install the drives. The paper that comes with the optical usually explains that as well.
    Go for a tool-free case as well if you can. Makes upgrades a LOT faster and easier.

    BTW, my 8 core AMD 8150 cost half what int-Hell’s does and it should be plenty of power for even a more than casual gamer.
    cheese

    Posted by Doctor DETH    United States   03/18/2013  at  08:15 PM  

  10. If all you use it for is web surfing, email, ebooks, videos, and light gaming, then consider a tablet. I just got a Nexus 10 (10” screen instead of a 7” - old eyes...). My daughter at around the same time got a Kindle Fire HD (8.9” screen). Both were under $500, and the Nexus can be hooked up to a full size keyboard and monitor (not sure about the Kindle). Plus you can unhook them and carry them around or travel with them.

    You can even install MS Office-like apps (word processing, spreadsheets, presentations, etc.).

    We’ve very happy with both. YMMV.

    Posted by CenTexTim    United States   03/18/2013  at  10:20 PM  

  11. Good advice from Risk there Drew. DIY probably wont save you any money these days but you can build to a spec you want. I probaby would get the core i5 as it will deal with video better than the i3 and has two more cores but I was on a budget with mine so had to save some money and opted for the i3 but its still a very good cpu with low power requirements but plenty of processing capability.

    As far as NAS goes its Network Attached Storage. )I am not convinced by the “cloud” I want my data on my disks. I built a small server using an Intel Atom cpu which uses hardly any power and is very efficient. The cpu doesn’t even need a fan and it has two cores. I loaded the system onto a small drive out of an old laptop and used Ubuntu for the OS. I then added a 1Tb drive for storage. The server can sit out of site in a closet. I use windows RDP (remote desktop protocol) to connect to the server. Not for beginners though as it needs a fair bit of configuring.

    I originally bought a D-Link DNS 323 which will take two drives up to 2Tb each and can be configured as RAID with mirroring for data security or as JBOD. Its based on a puny cpu running embedded linux but its excellent. I wanted a bit more power so I built the server. There are quite a few cheapish NAS devices around but Risk’s option of a ssd for the system and a big intrnal drive for storage would be faster and less hassle. Th eother drawback is you ideally need a wored network to get the best performance.

    Posted by LyndonB    United Kingdom   03/19/2013  at  03:28 AM  

  12. Gee am I feeling lucky now.  Only problem I face is a down printer. Small potatoes compared to Drew’s search.

    8 months ago I started getting warnings that my (Dell) printer was running low and then a warning I was dangerously low and running on reserve. So I bought a couple of cartridges from Choice Stationary, because the Dell ink is so expensive. The ink carts I bought claim they work in the Dell printer model 924. Well, they don’t. So I’m getting credit for the return but now must pay the difference for the authorized Dell cartridge. Thing is, my printer has never cause any problems and neither has the scanner. Of course, neither is exactly overworked and I don’t think I’ve ever had to replace ink more than once a year.
    My simple problem will be what printer will be better once the new ink carts go dry in a year. What other printer beside HP accept other ink carts?
    But reading every word Drew wrote about his PC and ALL of your answers and suggestions,
    I now know who to turn to when the time comes for a newer PC. You guys.
    I’m on my second Dell which is now six yrs old. And getting fairly slow loading web pages from time to time.  ISP recently installed fiber optic but I see little difference between that and what I had before.  Maybe it’s just me?
    Reading lots about SSD in pc mags, and find also find very few people who like W8.

    Wondering if I should upgrade to 7? If I can.

    Posted by peiper    United Kingdom   03/19/2013  at  07:05 AM  

  13. I have been building my own systems since the early 90s. Thanks to my IT degree I have access to a lot of MS software (up to Server 2008R2).

    Building a system today is about researching the available parts and deciding what specs you need. I favor Gigabyte motherboards, AMD processors, nVidia graphics cards, and Western Digital drives. Should you decide to go the BIY route, sites such as Newegg and Tiger Direct are good places to look - Newegg offers many deals regularly. Just be wary of the Roswill brand.

    As a server specialist - I abhor the concept of the cloud. My data on someone elses machine? Unfathomable!

    Posted by jackal40    United States   03/19/2013  at  07:38 AM  

  14. I’m a big fan of the “cobble something together out of junk” approach. wink My current machine is an old 2gHz Athlon XP that I bought at a garage sale for a whopping 5 bucks. They were of course paranoids and pulled the HD first… So I moved my HDs and expansion cards from my previous machine into it. The previous machine was a P3 about like yours grabbed from the side of the road on trash day. One thing I don’t like about the Athlon is it’s IDE and PCI, so it’s getting hard to find stuff for it down at the local Micro Center. Anyway, it’s fast enough for web surfing, the occasional video editing and 3d animation jobs.

    Posted by JimS    United States   03/19/2013  at  08:44 AM  

  15. jackal ... questions,questions.
    Why wary of the Roswill? I mean, obviously it isn’t up to scratch but you you didn’t mention why.  I’m not pc geeky so much comes hard to me, and I wouldn’t trust myself to build a dog house let alone a pc.  Some folks are naturals and grasp things well.
    So, reading all of this since Drew opened up this subject, or a can of worms depending on where one is standing, I find I want to know the reasons. Like, you favor AMD which I am familiar with. Why? Is it price or a better processor then Intel? What advantage?

    All this stuff I am reading has me thinking, is it possible to have say Dell (just using them as an example) build a computer in the manner that you and others are suggesting, using the same parts and manufacturers? The result of course would be a better pc than the ones they ship all put together?
    Based on stuff I’ve been reading lately, I also think my next pc should be SSD.

    Posted by peiper    United Kingdom   03/19/2013  at  10:29 AM  

  16. I’ll answer for him Piper. Rosewill is cheap crap. It breaks easily.

    I am a fan of the rolling upgrade. I am running the same computer I have had since ‘97 or so. The only original part is the plastic robot sitting on it. It has had 4 motherboards and the same amount of CPUs, 4 optical drives, 9 different Hard drives, of which 5 are still attached. (Hell with the ‘cloud’ drives are cheap.) 3rd case and 3rd video card. All in all, I think I have paid a total of, at last accounting, $983.44.
    My last big upgrade was for my last birthday, where I got a MoBo, 8GB of RAM, and AMD 8150 CPU, cooling fan and, since I sorely needed it, a case and PSU. Total cost to move up to (sort of) cutting edge was about $350. It was the most I have put into a computer since I initially built my original machine. The last one before that was a new 6770 video card.
    Building your own has it’s rewards in price point, knowing what you have, and tailoring upgrades to your needs.

    I agree with your list Jackal, BUT, I have always been a fan of the Radeon. I also like the WD family of Hard drives, since I bought my first 85MB Caviar from a Gateway store many many moons ago to replace a 20MB Seagate.

    BTW, I have owned in the 30 years since I got my first PC compatible, ~0~ Intel CPUs.

    Posted by Doctor DETH    United States   03/19/2013  at  07:16 PM  

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