Patriot Act Shot Down
The NYT story today is thought to have had some influence on this. But, here is the real reason that story came out today.
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash9nyt.htm
Nothing like manipulating the news for fun and personal gain.
Rickvid ... that’s not controling the news, just the MSM. ... and THAT’S not news either these days.
God, I wish that third plane had hit the Senate side of the Capitol building instead of the Pentagon.
OCM, you could gather up enough drunks, perverts, and idiots to replace those folks in Congress within a couple days. Hell, the drunk, perverts, and idiots they would bring in might provide some sanity to those halls.
Better than the drunks and perverts they already have, which would seem to be not a few. Certain names come to mind.
That choir of 52, however, will be singing a different tune if some terrorist happens to waste one of THEM next time. Of course, the terrorists are usually intelligent enough to know who their allies are....
GRRRR!
I think that the one that bothered me most was the “National Security Letter”. It not only lets a law enforcement officer write his own warrant without judicial review but forbids the subject from discussing it with anyone or challenging it in court. Apparently the new provisions would allow consulting with a lawyer and mounting a legal challenge. I understand that 30,000 NSLs were issued last year. Sorry, the Constitution provides for warrants to be issued by a judge on probable cause. There’s nothing wrong with that, “tame judges” abound.
Okay, there has been no reported abuse of these laws so far, of course, discussing them will get you prison time. How long will it take before some bright lad decides to bend them to his own purposes?
I have no problem with the roving wiretap. It’s time that the law caught up to technology. Get a warrant, though. It’s not that hard to do.
As to our distinguished Solons; a good house (and Senate) cleaning is definitely in order. I too am available.
Am I reading this right?
Are you actually in FAVOR of the patriot act?
Posted by Wyrm
12/17/2005 at 01:57 AM
I was referring to ALL of you, OCM, not just you.
I just cant believe this. Probably one of T.H.E. worst pieces of shit legislation to never be read by CONgress, one piece of shit that I would have thought just about everyone here would be against. Yet.....Wow. Talk about a surprise.
The next time a Klinton-type is in the White House, and this piece of shit is being used against Americans with no terrorist ties, leanings, or anything else, I wonder how supportive everyone will be then? When people are charged under the ‘patriot’ act for damn near anything.
Guess we’ll see, huh?
Posted by Wyrm
12/17/2005 at 01:04 PM
I have absolutely no problem with the Patriot Act. In fact, I was very happy when it was signed into law. I felt that we were making big strides to fight global terror. But now, the donks are up to their old tricks and tyring to undo everyting that has been done to fight global terrorism.
Wyrm, there is too much oversight for this type of legislation to be abused. Let me refresh your memory. Remember Richard Nixon? Daniel Ginzberg? The Pentagon papers? A President tried to abuse these powers once and he was sent packing. During times like these, abnormal measures are required particularly when confronting a radical group of criminal thugs like the terrorists who are virtual spies. Also, remember that every power granted under the act has pre-defined expiration dates. Congress can let it die at any time.
The problem comes in with them removing the ‘sunset provisions’ that were included in the original. They want to make most of these new laws permanent.
Sorry, Skipper, there was a different set of rules when Nixon was in power. As to the Klintoons, there were different rules then too but they still had a bunch of FBI files that they shouldn’t have had and which went missing when someone leaked that they had them. The files were eventually found, right next to the Rose Law Firm Billing records that had been subpeonaed but couldn’t be found. They too showed up when the investigation was over.
I’m not overly concerned with the present administration abusing these powers, although it could happen, I am mainly concerned with what other unknown possible future administrations could/would do. Consider the possibilities…
So in order to beat the bad guys, we need to become fascists just like the bad guys. Explain to me again how this makes us any different from them? Oh, yeah, I remember, we’ve got wire taps, and they’ve got camel couriers.
I’m sorry, I dont believe that I should have to sacrifice my rights in order to fight terrorism. That’s the same tune that’s been played before, in too many countries, and the result has been WAYYY too many deaths. Oh yeah, and that pesky little thing called World War Two. You know, tens of millions of deaths, countries destroyed, the like. Hitler managed to get ‘emergency’ powers to deal with communist and jewish terrorists; how many regular Germans do you think you could have found a few years later that would have been singing the praises of the ‘emergency’ powers?
How about a real novel concept: Instead of making NEW laws to strangle us with, how about using the existing laws to catch terrorists? How about actually enforcing the immigration laws? The same immigration laws that, if enforced, would have sent HOW MANY of the Sept. 11 hijackers back to camel-land? How about just NOT allowing any more muslims to come into this country, and not extending the visas of those already here? Kind of hard to commit terror in Chicago when you’re in Cairo.
How is reading my email and seeing what books I check out of the library, or what websites I visit, going to help catch Islamic terrorists?
Islam is the problem, yet people think that more laws are the solution....I just cant understand that way of thinking. The .gov is NOT your friend, and its not going to save you from anything. Not even from yourself.
But it’ll gladly throw chains around your neck if you let it. And supporting the ‘patriot’ act is akin to asking for some more chains, and gimme some of them extra-heavy ones this time, the logging chain. Once I get this broken in, I’ll go for some anchor chain off an aircraft carrier or maybe just an amphibious warfare ship (LHD perhaps).
Today, the ‘patriot’ act is being used against loosely-defined terrorists (basically, whoever the .gov decides is a terrorist). What of tomorrow, when we’ve got a .gov that makes the Klinton regime look like honest, caring individuals? When its not islamic bomb-throwers who are being targeted, but ideological terrorists like bloggers, alternative media outlets, colleges/educated people, or churches? Will you STILL support the emergency powers act?
I dont now, and I wont then. But then, I’m an actual conservative (small ‘c’). I think the only things worse than liberal-socialist statists are neocon-fascist statists. At least you know where you stand with liberal-socialist statists.
Posted by Wyrm
12/17/2005 at 03:48 PM
Wyrm! Wyrm! Settle down, please! We’re not neo-con fascists here (whatever that is). This isn’t the first time the government has had to implement emergency powers. Hell, Lincoln threw out habeus corpus and was able to hold supposed Confederate spies indefinitely without trial. In WWII, the FBI was given emergency powers to flush out German and Japanese spies. Do you really think the government could get away with sending every Muslim home? The liberals would be screaming from the rooftops.
No one is reading your e-mail (unless you’re in communication with an Al-Qaeda cell overseas) and no one is concerned about what books you check out of the library (unless you check out books on how to make an atomic bomb, along with books on Islamic jihad and a copy of Mein Kampf - which would be kinda stupid and an invitation for a visit from the Feds). Stop scaring yourself. The Clintons didn’t get away with their little “spy games”. We found out about it because in this country the truth eventually leaks out. And people got mad as hell.
And emergency powers always go away when the threat is removed. That is the difference between the USA and every other banana republic or fascist regime out there. You forget that there are 300 million pairs of eyes watching the government at all times, my friend. And there are probably at least that many firearms being held by those eyes, ready to pop a cap in the first asshole who tried to make emergency powers permanent.
The American people are entirely different from every other society that has ever existed. We are an argumentative, individualistic, protective bunch of asshats and woe betide anyone who tries to do what you suggest. We will surrender a few freedoms TEMPORARILY in order to remain safe while the bad guys are destroyed but we’ll be keeping a wary eye on government for the duration. Trust the government? You gotta be kidding!If some future goober in the White House decided to go after bloggers, media, colleges or churches as you say, you’d hear the screaming from every rooftop in this country and the sound of “lock and load” would be deafening. Fascists get away with it in other countries because the people allow themselves to be cowed. I’m sorry to disillusion you but there are no moo-cows around here (except in blue states). Not now. Not ever. No way.
Amen to all. Good arguments on both sides and a pleasure to behold. Refreshing and challanging to the feable mind indeed.
niteall
