More Punishment For Abu Ghraib
There always must be a scapegoat, but considering what the punishment might have been, this may be a subtle confession that the entire affair was no more than a tempest in a teapot.
Where were the other officers? Where were the senior NCO’s? Wasn’t anybody doing any leadership? A little “management-by-walking-around” can do wonders in a unit.
Sounds like there wasn’t enough adult supervision of the troops. The unit chain-of-command sounds like it was broken.
“Tempest in a teapot...”, perhaps, but indicative of a sorry-ass unit with worthless leaders.
Posted by MAJ Mike
05/06/2005 at 08:36 AM
Karpinski had charges pending for shoplifting a bottle of perfume before the scandal broke. I suspect the whole prison operation was a clusterfuck, and that Karpinski was probably ensconced in her office most of the time, unwilling to walk around taking names and kicking butt.
In my experience, most folks who spent their careers in the line were a bit crusty, rough around the edges and blunt.
I’ve encountered some women like Karpinski who were affirmative action babies that were running large line organizations without ever having worked in a line position. They were intimidated by these crusty, experienced underlings and failed to take advantage of the experience, which resulted in a blustering, false-bravado, hideaway memo-crazy manager. A visit to their office for a brief confab often gave me the feeling I was watching a one-armed paper hangar.
Karpinski’s career is over. Good riddance and good on the officers who said the hell with affirmative action and did the right thing.
Maybe she was shoplifting panties from the PX after hers were snitched to put on the heads of the prisoners.
She should have been busted. Her appearances whining on TV were not becoming of an officer.
All told, this ‘scandal’ was probably just one that was picked up by the media and played to the hilt. I don’t know if it was Bob who brought it up, but what was done to these prisoners - compared to beheadings of our men shown on TV and all the other atrocities..... oh, just give me a break. Those fools who engaged in the actual business of humiliating the prisoners were fools, but gee.... let’s go see what they do to prisoners in Egypt for a comparison and then shut up..... or boycott the NYT for turning this incident into hell on earth for our troops and fodder for a feeding frenzy for the democrats.
Posted by Phoenix
05/06/2005 at 11:19 AM
She was the commander and she didn’t exercise her authority over the unit by getting out to see what the hell was going on. The demotion was deserved. Several other officers (1 x COL, and assorted LTCs, MAJs, CPTs, etc.) also got various punishments and adverse administrative actions.
The 800th MP had a wacko staff in its headquarters in Kuwait. I know-I was there. The Command Climate was broke. Karpinski’s predecessor probably is to blame as well, but I suspect his career is over too. Don’t shed too many tears for her and her underlings.
Posted by Annoying_Mike
05/06/2005 at 12:52 PM
Well said, Bob.
I looks like the shit rolled downhill from the General on down. Read this article:
http://cbs4boston.com/news/topstories_story_125185532.htmlI’m a retired Air Force Security Policeman and I can tell you from working with Military Police that I am not surprised by this whole thing. Like was mentioned before, they don’t get a lot of training and they are left to their own devices. Things like this happen when you don’t have “Adult Supervision.”
I am glad to see higher ranking people having to pay the price for a change.Bob,
Good point. And yes, it helps to be reminded of it occasionally. My first husband was a ‘weekend warrior’ who was in the guard because he liked to shoot and needed the extra cash. Had he been called up and placed into a situation like Abu Graib, two things would have happened to his reality check: He’d have gone mad with fury at the conditions, and/or, he’d have reported it. (to no avail, I imagine) But that’s because he was smart. If you put people into those conditions who are not so smart, who lack the discipline demanded by good leadership, you get what you pay for. People, even the crudest among us, have limits. Being spit on and having feces thrown at you?.... Humiliation beats ‘accidental’ death any day of the week.
Posted by Phoenix
05/06/2005 at 05:18 PM
One also must remember that not “all weekend warriors” are unable to find their ass with both hands. There are plenty (and I did time in the Naval Reserve as well as full time Regular Navy active duty on both sides of the reserve time) of dirt bags in almost any unit, active and reserve. That the weekend folks are not at their peak in training or often in the gear they have to work with...does not excuse the less than professional from getting brought up on charges. But, again, there are many more top flight men and woman out there doing the best they can.
England was foolish, stupid, you name it. I think she should have gotten office hours...and nothing more...as for the Chain of Command (or lack there of) They are the ones who are “by the book” accountable for the actions of their troops. And just as a Capt of a Naval vessel is relieved of their command when the ship runs aground because the ultimate accountability and authority rests on their shoulders, so should this former BG be busted (and I think she should have lost two pay grades...one for the shop lifting, and one for her failure to command).
Don’t get me started on PC and the military...I may have to go find a bell tower<G>.
There are a lot of good points here on both sides. I was a full time active duty squid for 10 years. I spent 2 of my least enjoyable years working a pay and benefits desk at a reserve center. I am a weapons tech and I got thrown in to this job to replace an asshat who got the boot out because of a drug problem - talk about a crash ojt not to mention this being the straw that made me quit the Navy!!.
Given my experience, I can relate to both the excellence of some reservists (mostly the ex-active duty types) and the complete worthlessness of others (virtually all of whom were women or minority assholes of the types who walk around with a lack of motivation and a sense of entitlement - yes the military reserve recruits welfare moms and gangbangers, too!!).
Given that plus what I’ve read I can visaulize the utter disaster that was this particular command and everyone in it. However, the most serious hatred I am saving for the absolutely traitorous fucktards who posted these pictures and films and/or shared them around for bragging rights. It is one of my most fervent wishes that these rectal worms, these children of maggots be the ones sent out to be slaughtered in unarmored vehicles or captured by terrorists.
These visual artists are certainly the most guilty for ruining everything good we have tried to do to end the scourage of the Islamist movement (without using the nukes I thought we should use) and bring civilization to the barbarions in the Middle East. They have given the best ever support and comfort to the BARKING MOONBATS of the world in their quest to destroy this great country and replace it with the UNITED FAGGOT SOCIALIST NATIONS.
Its a nice idea. The problem is that it always seems to be us that gets a distaste for war first. Then we end up having to hold our noses and numb our senses because some asshat starts a)torpedoing liners full of our citizens (WWI), blowing up our bases in Hawaii (WWII), invading our friends and killing our people who are living or stationed there(Korea, Kuwait), flying airplanes full of civilians into buildings full of civilians, or shooting at our planes and threatening the neighbors and trying to kill our former leaders (Saddamn).
The only time there is ever a peace that we can enjoy is when people are aware of the fact that we are pissed off, thirsting for blood, and armed for bear. Then everybody acts real nice.
Bush waited to long to deal with Saddamn and Iran. If we’d gone after all of them right after Afghanistan, especially if we had just nuked Tora Bora when we first found it and then went after Saddamn, I promise you all the rest of them towelhead types would be climbing over themselves to make nice.
People always got to make us prove that we can be more nasty than they are. You’d have thought they’d have learned by now.
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