massacre that has claimed 125 lives, hostages also taken.
on 11/27/2008 at 05:52 PM
There is only ONE way to “talk” or “hold dialog” with such barbarians.
The same way Kitchener held “dialog” with the Madhists at Abu Klea and Omdurman.
Posted by Turtler
11/27/2008 at 08:27 PM
Peiper as Corporal Jones says on Dad’s Army (re Turtler’s comment on Omdurman) They don’t like it up ‘em! (cold steel that is). Your right Turtler talking to these people is like talking to a rabid dog. Pointless and dangerous. Better to give them the maxim gun!
....sadly it will take another half dozen of these, each one worse than the one before.
then the world might get serious. get out of the U.N. and buy more ammo!!They’re not sure if the al-Qaeda network is behind it?
Does it matter? This “… well planned and well-orchestrated...” attack was certainly done in concert and without question had planning and underwriting from some experienced source. I’m pretty sure it wasn’t the Boy Scouts or the Daughters of the American Revolution.
This is one of those instances to which President Bush referred when he said, “If you’re not with us, you’re against us!” Any group, organization, nation, country or entity that is not joined with the attempt to stop and neutralize this sort of savagery is - at best - allowing it to continue. This is not the sort of conflict in which one can be ‘neutral’.
On a somewhat related note, the Indian Navy sank a pirate controlled vessel this last week off the coast of Somalia. The Somali pirates need to be stomped into a hole in the ground. Then the hole filled in. That would be an excellent ‘message’ to send to the lawless and scornfull.
The second ‘message’ we need to send is a wholesale cleanout of the ‘tribal’ areas of northwestern Pakistan. Yeah, I know it’s technically within the borders of Pakistan, a sovereign nation and all that. However, that area isn’t even near being under Pakistani government control, and that’s why it’s such a breeding ground for terrorists, Taliban and other lowlifes.
Let’s see if anyone has the sand to even suggest such actions, let alone do it.
Crusin’ for a bruisin’. If they want to be martyrs, the world will eventually give them what they want. They think the world will give into there nasty terror attacks and cave in. Some will, but I think even places such as (formerly) Great Britain will get up on their hind legs and fight back violently.
Moslems are the majority only from Northern Africa to Pakistan (except maybe Indonesia, got to check on that). Even the countries where they are the majority aren’t that powerful on a world scale. How long do they think they can get away with this kind of stuff before the world hits back hard? At this rate, exterminating Moslems will become a sport, like deer hunting.
It’s really a shame. There are decent Moslems in the world and they will be hurt and killed too. When the Islamists and all other Moslems are pounded into submission (to the Western world, not Allah) the decent ones will hang on our consciences for a long time to come.
(except maybe Indonesia, got to check on that).
Oh yes, you would almost certainly be correct, as Java has Islamic history dating back to the 1300’s at least.
However, they are also a majority in Central Asia, Albania, Kosovo, Central Asia, and Sinkiang (NW China).
At this rate, exterminating Moslems will become a sport, like deer hunting.
Hardly. Muslims of all stripes (Islamists, Moderates, Secularists, Sunni, Shiite, Sufi, etc) are all over the world (again, many of the killers were BRITISH-PAKISTANI, ie FROM THE WEST), and they are not alone. That, and you DO realize that it would be VERY difficult to conquer an area as large as you are talking about? We are talking about roughly a third of the world’s populated landmass! That is FAR more then either the Kaiserreich OR Hitlerite Germany and Imperial Japan EVER got their hands on.
It would not be easy.
Posted by Turtler
11/29/2008 at 04:01 AM
many of the killers were BRITISH-PAKISTANI, ie FROM THE WEST),
Seem to be conflicting news over here.
The BBC (radio) reports NO Brit born islamists while the newspapers say three or four were.BBC says so far, no terrorists there have actually been ID’d as British. All but one of the terrorists at one hotel were killed and there isn’t any ID yet on the one in custody.
?? Who to believe?
It was infuriating to say the very least, to listen to radio and hear interviews with left leaning idiots who claim that while murder is indeed an awful thing, they can understand the anger of muslims as the poor folks have been mistreated by the west for too long.
Spokesman (a woman actually) for the gween party here says violence and Bush’s way are the wrong way and we MUST TALK to these filthy bastards instead of trying to kill them. “!!%$##~!F#£"!£"$&*(&*&^$£!What in the world is it with these jerks? She’d be taking a different line most likely if mudslimes finally took over and put her in a burka and made her walk a foot or two behind her husband. Or maybe she’d embrace them. Who knows.
the decent ones will hang on our consciences for a long time to come.
I guess nobody will think too highly of me on this but ....
Not My Conscience Dr. Jeff.
I really do have one btw, and it often does bother me on some things. But as regards this particular problem, I haven’t any conscience at all. Zero.Peiper:
Perhaps they aren’t , but the point remains: Islamists live and are bred right here in the West. We can’t simply go over to Iran, Egypt, Libya, Indonesia, Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, DerkaDerkaMuhammadJihadistan, etc, blow them to pieces, and then call the issue solved. Why? Because unlike Madhist Sudan, the Kaiserreich, Czarist Russia, Hitlerite Germany, the USSR, Maoist China, North Korea, Ottoman Turkey, etc, THEY DON"T HAVE A CENTRALIZED “return to sender” ADDRESS! And this is CRUCIAL, because no longer can we merely sail ships up the Dardanelles, Storm the ramparts of Sevastopol, march through Berlin, Hoist the banner over the Kremlin, or hold a Parade in Pyongyang and call it over.
No. The enemy is here, and we will have to fight him here, there, and everywhere.
However, ALSO unlike the lands of misfit toys I mentioned earlier, we can’t secure a decisive victory using purely military means, no more then we could kill Hitler on September 2nd, 1939, and stop WWII as the Germans cross the Polish border.
The thing is that, rather then fight on the geopolitical scale, with nations, borders, field armies, etc, we are fighting on the abstract, asymmetrical level. Which means that we can no longer count on the next Omdurman, Santiago de Cuba, Ameins, Megiddo, Operation Overlord, Stalingrad, Leizpig 1946, Inchon, or Hamburger Hill.
In other words, we cannot count on a single, decisive, complete victory to simultaneously break the will, ability, capacity, and intellectual resolve of the enemy.
Why? Because we are fighting an entirely different war here.
Take a look at the formation of Saudi Arabia, if you will.
On and off for about a hundred years, the Houses of Saud and Al Rashid fought for dominance in the Arabian Peninsula. Now, as we all know, the House of Saud came out on top.
And yes, we can point to a half-dozen battles such as the Saudi Conquest of Riyadh in 1902, Rawdat Muhanna in 1906, etc etc etc.
However, the thing one notices upon looking at the battles between the House of Saud and the Rashidis and their Ottoman Turkish allies is how remarkably low-key they were in terms of casualties.
This is because the main struggle WAS NOT fought in major battles as we in the West would understand them. It was fought in various arcane tribal alliances, preaching, skirmishing, economic warfare, and others that occasionally led to major, pitched battles.
This was because both sides were semi-feudal societies fighting as much over religion and tribal issues as any geopolitical points.
And this way of war had now been transplanted off of the obscure, unmapped oasis of the Arabian Peninsula and onto a literally global scale.
And this is why the whole “hearts and minds” thing is so important. Unlike a modern, unified nation state (like, say, Germany in the World Wars), we are dealing with various decentralized factions fighting amongst themselves for men, material, and funds, off the site of traditional battlefields.
The battlefield is instead the orthodoxies and scholarship of the Muslim World. He who controls that, will decide the war’s course. However condescendingly we may mention “Moderate Muslims”, we cannot afford to not help them (No, not CAIR or their ilk, but actual Pro-Western Muslims such as the FMC or IFfD), as, in order to break the hold the Islamists have over those doctrines that as spread like poison in the waterways to millions, we have to have our own Muslim allies discrediting them.
This is why all talk of nuking Mecca (EXCEPT as a VERY last resort) are rubbish: the majority of Muslims are probably undecided over this issue, and, like many civil wars, the victor will be whoever can bring the middle over to their side.
So, no, the idea that just because Muslims are only a majority in the Middle East and Indonesia (and other places) does not mean this is easy, as this is a global battlefield.
Posted by Turtler
11/29/2008 at 09:33 AM
11/27/2008 at 08:53 PM
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