Is it okay to help someone whose life has become unendurable, to end it all at their choosing?
on 07/31/2009 at 11:33 AM
Who died and made anyone of these people God?
Is there a time when nothing will make a difference or help? Yes, in some situations and without government god interfering - it used to be that Drs. just gave a little more pain killer, cut meds down, not (DNR) do anything else. . .
To assist a ‘suicide’ - is just as bad as using a knife or gun - you are killing someone - on whose ‘judgment’? And why? I certainly don’t want someone to ‘pronounce’ me terminal - oh wait - they already have. I don’t want anyone to pronounce my child terminal - oh wait - they already have. Absolutely wrong.
So pardon me, if I think the medical profession is not populated with a bunch of gods who can and do only tell absolute truth. Ever.
Pain - yepper I know that one - and from that event - I can understand why people go crazy with it - You don’t ever think that anything can be done. But I got up, got out of the damn bed and went to see a Dr. Where I was humiliated and just added another reason to pack it all in and end it all. But alas - it was the best thing I did - Dr. Jerk actually called me later that day and had made another appointment (to CYA, but hey I will take what I can get) - and to shorten the story - a surgery was done and by that afternoon was back to happy, fat and sassy again.
And so - once again who died and made them god - to decide who lives and who dies - but more importantly - to determine that they are infallible?
I call b***s***. And don’t come near me. Ever.
Hi Wardmom ...
I think I was referring to a situation where someone had had enough but was unable to do it alone because they left it too long.
Sometimes ppl leave wills or some statement saying how they want to handle things.Some months ago we were told that my wife’s brother had a serious and inoperative brain tumor. They cut some out but the kind of tumor he has comes back and it grows very fast.
Since then, he’s suffered setbacks that cause fits, he is unable to speak clearly if at all, no longer recognizes anyone and didn’t know my wife when she called him, at his wife’s request. (that’s a whole other story. his wife.)
He has lost all sight. The tumor is so big it actually pushed his brain to one side.Nobody is trying to kill him but honestly Wardmom, I would hope that if I ever got anywhere near like that, someone would help me out if I wasn’t able to do the job alone.
That isn’t life. That’s simply existing.I agree re. docs and god thing. I’ve met a couple of nice ones here BUT ... there’s always a but. Had two really great doctors in Riverside Calif yrs ago. I mean, they really listened and they did try to help and they actually did. Sadly ... I think they were the exceptions.
BTW ... doctors here do not want to participate in assisted suicide. Which I think most unfair but maybe they’re worried about law suits. ??
The following is most of a letter on the subject in todays paper.
Julia Lawton, who observed the realities of dying in a hospice over a number of years, rightly pays tribute to the dedication and professionalism of the staff, but despite their skill, the bodily realities of dying that she describes in The Dying Process (2000) are grim. “Hospice proponents, by sleight of hand, give the impression that suffering is the experience of pain per se.” Her point is that pain can to a great extent be controlled but that the suffering that people experience is far broader than pain. The vomiting, depression, agitation, constipation and loss of autonomy are rarely if ever mentioned — let alone the “visible signs of bodily decay; the stench of incontinence; the lethargy and despondency of patients”. Only part of the experience of dying in a hospice is spoken about. The “dirty dying” is swept under the carpet. However, people want to believe that their relative died peacefully and with dignity, and that the same will happen to them.
The argument that more and better palliative care can be a substitute for a change in the law on the right to die is without foundation, a myth put about by the palliative care world. Palliative care is not an alternative to changing the law.
Nan Maitland
Friends at the EndYes, by all means, eradicate that portion of the populace that remembers when Britain was great. It doesn’t surprise me in the least that one of your politically correct, useful-idiot MPs would propose it--so much easier to give what remains of the nation to Islam that way.
But, don’t you see Peiper - you are placing yourstandards upon another person - much as you think she’s wrong - the s-i-l has whatever - hope, love, a fantasy he will recover - something that keeps her going. Is it wrong - by your view/standards it is (and yes I know that coming at this while caring for the m-i-l - is a whole different matter). Just as the situation of someone who is 4 is vastly different than someone who is 94, just as someone who is on their 4 or 5 major medical condition/setback is different than someone on the first.
Even for your b-i-l, the docs could slowly ease up his pain meds to the point where he is incapacitated and passes on - I come from a family of docs - after they pass - their records are very interesting at what they did with ‘hopeless’ cases. But having said that - the last one died 41 years ago - medicine has changed a whole bunch since then.
Simple case in point - while my son was being treated a nice woman from Africa came in with her son - seems he slipped into a hot spout while on a school tour and burned his legs. The Drs there told her that there was nothing they could do for the burns other than - yada, yada, yada. Being a caring mom - seeing the pain and the results - she kept searching and stumbled onto Shriners - she asked, they answered. A few grafting surgeries and they went back to Africa with a whole new outlook on ‘there’s nothing we can do.’
I guess I am kind of off, compared to most people because I have seen what the medical profession can do when left alone - and no I’m in reality enough to know it can’t help everyone - but I do think a lot of the problems/concerns is our personal ‘emotion/gut/I don’t want to live like that’ attitude. I’m just asking you not to impose it, but more importantly not to force it, on me.
Read those Living Wills, DNRs carefully - maybe it was just one our son got - but there is a clause that basically says they can do what they want. And that is where all the problems begin.
It reminds me of a situation (made into a tv movie) about a couple who gave birth to a very premature baby - seems the docs moved right in and without even asking treated her, she survived, so to speak - never left the hospital, lots of surgeries and complications and a few weeks and thousands of dollars later - tell them it’s hopeless, she’s going to die. That is the problem - not securing permission - when the person/family is on the hook for the payment. Not right, not fair - should not be allowed.
Cases like Quinlan and Schiavo show that perhaps the EMTs, ER do take the resuscitation to extremes - in those cases - should the family be financially responsible? Come on - even I know without oxygen (without other variables such as CPR and/or cold) the brain starts dying in 6 to 10 minutes (Quinlan had two periods of not breathing for 15 minutes - still taken to hospital, Schiavo had been face down - unknown period of time). There are options to either allow the family immediate decision making parameters or to force someone else to take the financial burden - should the decision be wrong.
That is why we said ok with our son - no one expected him to live - but Shriners wasn’t going to stick us with the bill if he lived/died - they got to try out new, cutting edge (actually si-fi type new medical advancements), they got to have a (pardon me while I use a gag worthy metaphor here) ‘teachable moment’ and we got a little hope. Imagine all of our surprise when it worked. Now they can use the info at their hospital - and in Seminars - that it does work even in the most extreme case.
And perhaps that is why these hospitals do it - but should that ever be without the parents/families permission and/or expense? And why should it - the Docs/Hospitals are going to be the ones to benefit failure or success - should that situation bankrupt families?
See there are way too many variables, facets, situations beliefs, perceptions and consequences - that a one-size-fits all isn’t right in this case. At all. And by the way - for you and your family - I say do what you want - just don’t stop me from doing what I want. And most certainly - Don’t let the Government make a law one way or the other. Not their Right, Not their Place, Not their business. Ever.
- I say do what you want - just don’t stop me from doing what I want. And most certainly - Don’t let the Government make a law one way or the other. Not their Right, Not their Place, Not their business. Ever.
Right on Wardmom. Agree totally.
Correction I think (?) I don’t want to pass on my standards to others by any force of law or persuasion. I want (for myself) what you wrote.
And that’s a problem right now because that is exactly what the anti lobby is doing. A one type solution to fit all.The ref. to the BIL was just an example as to what I’d want for myself if I got into that situation. And I agree again. My guess is, as is yours, that she (the wife) may be hoping for some medical miracle. Since he isn’t communicating, there really isn’t any way to know if he has any thought process or pain. Who can tell? But heck, I would never suggest to her or his daughters that they should kill the poor guy. Not my decision (thank heaven)and I don’t want it to be. I just want to decide for myself which I think is fair.
Here’s the problem at the moment in England.
If I got to a point where my quality of life was zero, bedridden with strangers coming in to change my diapers several times a day, I would want an out with some dignity and a time of my choosing. Ah ... here’s the BUT.
The law here says that my wife could be prosecuted if she in any way aided me, even if I ask while I have all my faculties. She is not allowed by law to even accompany me to a suicide clinic. However
Suicide here is NOT AGAINST THE LAW. So then, the way the law stands, a person can be prosecuted for helping another person commit a perfectly legal act.
I don’t see the logic in that.You are so right. The one size fits all kind of thinking is wrong.
Finally, hate to ask and I’ll look like duh, but.
DNR ? I don’t recall that. what does that stand for?so much easier to give what remains of the nation to Islam that way.
That’s a good line. I have to remember it so I can steal it from ya.
Hey ... I think you might have mis-understood the picture I meant to share.
See my reply to Wardmom here for Sunday.As the law stands, I have the freedom to end it all when the time comes. However, nobody close to me has the freedom to help me if I needed help. And all because some folks think that some people will abuse the freedom to help loved ones. And some bad folks will. We can bank on that. But why should everyone else have to suffer the bad decisions of others?
Wardmom is right, as she is so often. I do not want the state to get in the way and make decisions like that for me. I do not want to make it for others. Just for myself.
And then as well lets not forget the do-gooders who from some sort of religious conviction or some other strongly held moral belief, think that I should NOT have to right to end my own life. Now that really gets sticky.
Well if that is really the situation - suicide is legal, yet your wife would go to jail for assisting you - then damn, I agree - it is stupid.
DNR - DO NOT RESUSCITATE - our son has one - as the kids say - been there, done that - not at all interested in doing it again. We support him in that - it was the worst thing our family ever could have gone through, do not want to go through it again.
I just guess I am too emo on the subject - suicide and ‘quality of life’ and ‘death with dignity’ seem to me are all code words to make yourself god to decide when to die.
Is being in diapers as an adult any more humiliating than being in them as a child - to us yes, as we see it from our own perception as a healthy cognizant person - we see it as a regression, a humiliation, a failure - but like your b-i-l - the real problem is does/is the person cognizant of the entire situation and it’s meanings and it’s terminal state - thus the question becomes is the person in a terminal state? Or simply very unhealthy at this moment?
Sort of a chicken or egg quandary? And when it comes to my soul - my eternal afterlife (or none thereof) I simply don’t want some gov wienie having made a law that forces anyone to make that decision for me - don’t want to chance it - as tomorrow or the next day - that change/miracle/sci fi cure could come.
While the Schiavo debacle was going on - here locally shortly after Christmas (I believe that the Schiavo debacle ended in like March) - a man picked up the phone - it was someone from the rehab center where his daughter had lived since being found unconscious at the scene of a car accident about 10 years (maybe more) before. The person said, ‘I have someone who wants to speak to you’ - next he heard his daughter say - ‘Hi Dad’. No she did not get up out of the bed and walk out to be home in time for next Christmas - yes she has a long, long way to go to even get out of the rehab hospital - but it is proof she was in there all along, and recovery is possible.
And for me - I can’t take the chance of letting go of that opportunity. Ever. Pardon me if I want my death to be long, dirty, suffering, horrible, a humiliation, disgusting and a drain on everybody - it will be no different than my life. And maybe that is my distorted perception - I’ve never been healthy, I’ve never been physically able to do a lot of things - so I’m in a way already there - and I don’t like, actually sort of resent the ‘quality’ of life blather - I’ve done ok, thank you very much. Learned to live within my parameters and managed to do a whole lot of nice things. So what - it’s my life and I’m embracing it for all the crap, pain and suffering I can. Because then I can see beautiful sunsets, I can look into the eyes of a newborn child or grandchild, I can see love in the eyes of my husband and get tripped in the morning by two worthless cats - life is what we make it - embrace it while you can.
How about mandatory post natal abortion for politicians who prove themselves to be total fucktard smegheads? I insist.
07/31/2009 at 01:20 PM
