Horry Clap
Imagine that. An initiative acted upon by Bill,’not on my dress idiot’,Clinton had corrupt undertones going in.
And we still haunt the place to this day ,just like SOKO,Japan,Germany,Saudia,etc etc,blah blah blah.
Oh well, at least we have that southern immigration /drug gang problem nipped in the bud,RIGHT!!11!!
Oh screw it, pull the lever on the Thorezine shower already.Not long after this conflict started “Kosovans” started arriving illegally in Britain as “refugees” most of them were Albanian. Some of them were arguably genuine, though the fact they traveled across half of Europe before claiming asylum makes me somewhat sceptical of their claims. The rest were some of the most despicable, low life, murdering scum you could imagine. So I am not surprised by this at all.
How about we conservatives and non-liberals respond to the ‘never ending wars’ and ‘unfunded wars’ bs - with How is it going in Kosovo, guess we should have asked Clinton before the vote - WHICH CHRISTMAS and oh, btw whose funding that UN mess? Oh yeah the US. I think that this is all a plan to silence the Christians of the World and to force a OneWorld Gov - the liberals think that they are so smart, they will be in charge and the muslims think that they are so deceptive and violent - that they will be in charge. The problem is that neither group has any honest estimation of the ‘enemy’ they face. FREEDOM is just something that a vast number of Americans will still die for.
Here’s an appropriate video to cheer you all up:
Heres one that makes MY point to a tea:
http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2010/12/the_untimely_and_unnecessary_d.htmlUpdate to the dead fed on the border news:
http://cubachi.com/2010/12/15/janet-napolitanos-cya-heading-to-border-after-murder-of-border-agent/Sorry, but THIS is the reason why I verify before I trust *anything* from Gates of Vienna, and while the misbehavior of the individuals mentioned (most of whom, BTW, deserve to at the LEAST be drawn, quartered, and stuffed with pork as an example to all others), the stupidity comes in when one tries to go backwards and invalidate the Yugoslav intervention using our dismal cleanup/maintenance afterwords and the fact that our intervention allowed much of the scum to fester up to the surface.
Which is the reason why questions about the legitimacy of the intervention should RIGHTFULLY be focused on the events leading up to it and on the plans of the respective leaderships of the nascent sides.
The problem, of course, is that such an analysis does NOT jive well with any attempts to exculpate the Serb and Montenegrin military and political leadership.
To this end, I point you towards the excellent books:
* “Jihad in the Balkans: The Flame and the Sword” by Louis Muller. A very, VERY unflattering and VERY accurate account of both the historical Muslim presence in the Balkans and more specifically the Bosniak and Kosovar leadership and how they did lovely things like cavort with Albanian radicals, organized crime, and- *of course*- our own charming Islamist friends, but which nevertheless also categorically showcases that the Serbs were in fact both the instigators of and the largest perpetrators of the Yugoslav genocides).
* “Croatia Reborn: The Sins and Salvations of the Independence War” by Stepan Ivekovic. Pretty much JitB for Croatia, and ironically one of the most often-cited works even by pro-Serbian forces since it details in EXCELLENT detail the reprehensible actions of some very reprehensible men (namely Franjo Tudjman and his cabinet) and their willingness to court things like Neo-Nazi support while officially keeping at arms length, and the role of the regular Croatian army in the ethnic cleansings of Krajina.
Less-often cited is its coverage of a different set of reprehensible men: namely the Serbian leadership and how they made preparations to effectively cleanse large swaths of Dalmatia of Croats and to resettle it with Serbs and Montenegrins in order to take advantage of access to the sea and the region’s own well-developed infrastructure, amongst many, MANY other things.
* “Before the War: The Lives and Careers of Serbia’s Wartime Leadership” by Franz Hoffstader (a *Canadian*, believe it or not). Basically, this is invaluable because it strips away the most common context in which everybody throws the leadership of the Yugoslav Wars as a whole (the whole *war to save the nation/the race/ whatever* of the Yugoslav Wars themselves) and shows you what they did *BEFORE* they were in the dock for war crimes, *BEFORE* they led Serbia into the Yugoslav Wars and arguably actually caused them, and in many cases *BEFORE* they had obtained any power whatsoever. This goes through lesser known things like Milosevic’s “Anti-Bureaucratic Revolution”, Mladic’s pre-War career, the Serbian leadership’s response to and much, MUCH more. The result is honestly not the surprising to those who have studied post-Communist nations, though it is worth repeating: these were primarily Communist hacks mixing utter cynicism and ambition along with the tattered shards of idealism in an effort to climb the ladder at any cost. They were devout Communists for the majority of their lives, but when Nationalism came to the forefront they on the whole changed allegiances very easily and conveniently. This is by FAR one of the most invaluable books I have ever read precisely because it shows the Serbian war leadership out of the limelight which everybody has cast them in for one reason or another to show what they were like “in the wings of history’s stage”, and it is rather sobering indeed. I have heard that Hoffstader is planning additional books about the Croatian and Bosniak leadership, so I would recommend keeping an eye out for those.
And finally…
* “1991: The Road to Disaster” by Dimitry Mendelyeev. Simply put, it is a sin against God that this book is not more widely available or used, because as it is it is invaluable, because it shows a painstakingly slow slide-by-slide-by-slide breakdown of the Yugoslav collapse starting on New Year’s Day just over a week after the Slovene referendum and ending on New Year’s Eve just days away from the temporary ceasefire in Croatia. This helps break down and make sense of the chaos of midyear and shows *just* how the national leaderships reacted, with the Serbians most of all (and that *is* saying something in a cast that includes Tudjman and Izetbegovic) demanding either total obedience or war. Of particular note is Mendelyeev’s coverage of one of the most damning but little-known aspects of the Yugoslav crisis: Milosevic’s plans to invade Austria in retaliation for the arms embargo and perceived support for the Slovenes during the 10 Day War, complete with considerations for a “Operation Himmler"-esque false flag operation to justify the measure. Is this really the action of a man that was only trying to save his nation? Also invaluable is the coverage of the first real shots of the Kosovan War, and how the KLA slowly came to prominence ironically due to it being perceived as the only force capable of uniting the scattered Kosovar militias in the wake of the initial Serbian genocides.
Suffice it to say, I am FAR from happy with our performance in the Yugoslav Wars or our attempted cleanup after it. This should have been Europe’s issue to deal with, but as usual they passed the ball to us with typically disastrous results, including those referenced in the links.
That being said, that does not invalidate the initial intervention or the reasons for it.
The evidence arrainged both by these books and by many others conclusively show that the Serbian leadership more than any of the other pushed for radical measures such as war or subjugation and the use of institutionalized ethnic cleansings, even going so far as to consider the invasion of a neutral neighbor in spite of all the disastrous repercussions that would undoubtedly have taken place.
You will not get any dispute from me that we should have acted differently. But the idea that working to prevent what threatened to be a general conflagration moving into the heart of Europe and stopping a *very* dangerous and unscrupulous murderer and Russian ally was wrong is not supported by what we know.
It sucks to be the only thing preventing the world from caving in on everybody, but that is the Western Burden, the price and source of what makes us great. And God knows that if we can work to curb radicalism in the Balkans, it will be worth it. Because the fewer embittered Serbs, fanatical Muslims, and general crackpots on the doorstep of Western civilization, the better.
We have enough in the door as it is.
Posted by Turtler
12/18/2010 at 08:52 AM
Thanks Turtler, I was really hoping I’d get your input on this one.
That conflict was very confusing and difficult to understand for those of us on this side of the pond, especially since most of our info came in 30 second sound bites from the MSM. We could not tell the players without a scorecard, which we didn’t even have, and there was almost no background information available to us through them when the conflict began. All we knew was a) WWI started there and b) the Olympics were there recently. Ok, some of us knew a little about Tito, and some of us had heard Montenegro was a great place for an inexpensive vacation. Plus there were all these names and places that nobody had ever heard of or could properly pronounce. Heck, the whole area was still Yugoslavia as far as we were concerned, and nobody at first cottoned to the reality that there was no such thing as a Yugo (aside from those crappy 1982 cars). It took some time for the reality of the enforced ethnic mash-up to filter through. And then there was the religious angle, as some of those factions became radicalized. I recall news stories that, before the fighting, most of the muslims in the region were like “Holiday Christians” who only took tangential interest in the faith. At some point some of them got the WORD and it became a religious battle. At least that’s how I remember things from the TV news at the time.
As the war ripened and the story unfolded, we (the MSM) seemed to be in a rush to pick a side. Did we pick the right one? I don’t know. Most of us learned that Milosevic was a bloodthirsty loonie. But there were plenty of others.
And since then, yes, the Albanian mafia has grown alarmingly in many places since then.
Like Brooklyn NY. And London.I do know we still have 7000 troops there a decade later. I have also heard, every once in a blue moon from the MSM, that there is a movement to form some kind of sub-nation afoot. I recall the Russians were quite upset about that, back about the time that they invaded Georgia. So it’s STILL a confusing situation, and we STILL don’t have a clear picture from our media ... perhaps because it’s a tempest in a corner of Europe we’ve mostly forgotten (or hardly even realized) even exists.
The book references are very helpful for anyone who wishes to take the time to try to understand. Thanks again.
I agree, and I understand. The main butt of my response is the idea that our absolute f*ckup up a preformance since the end of the wars invalidates either our continued role there and especially the intervention in the first place.
To call the Yugoslav Wars “screwed up” would be an insult to screws. Like most modern Balkan Wars, they were bloody, confusing, and exceptionally bitter, particularly from the outside looking in and particularly for newcomers that were just learning about the field. Unfortunately, while Milosevic was probably the worst of a very, *VERY* bad lot and by far the greatest threat to regional stability (again, say what you will about Tudjman and Izetbegovic, but they themselves weren’t particularly keen on widening the war), he was far from to blame for everything, and unfortunately our modern Media can’t do objective, meaningful analysis worth jack schiesten and can only go into “One Side Complete Victims, One Side All Evil” or “A Pox on Both Their Houses” modes, which has greatly harmed us and still does.
I will be the first to admit that- like elsewhere- we’ve been strung along, fooled, and generally used by some very nasty people because we intervened.
But that’s neither particularly shocking nor very unusual. It’s something you work to minimize and then work through. As is the idiotic media coverage. And the losses.
And right now, in an era where we will be confronting a resurgant Russia hell-bent for death or glory and a growing Islamist storm coming in from the South, I would be very hesitant to condemn the Yugoslav intervention yet.
God knows that by the end of these wars, we’ll probably have more than a few others just like it on our belts.
But I can take a great deal of faith in the records of our predecessors.
Hitler. Stalin. Tito. The 19th/early 20th century monarchs and warlords. Austria. Hungary. Austria-Hungary. The Turks. Russia.
Practically whatever we do short of nuking the entire goddamned place, we probably *Can’t* do any worse than they have!
Posted by Turtler
12/18/2010 at 10:50 AM
Turtler you are a great commenter - And yes, I blame our (D) governments (who seem to be duplicitous in most foreign policy decisions) and our MSM for concurring with the DNC that Americans are stupid and thus send us the most banal, biased and vapid ‘news’ possible.
I was not rooting for a removal of our Troops - I am not an Isolationist - as the World is too unstable and the muslims have spread into too many places - to allow us the luxury of that policy. I just wish that D Administrations would be treated with the same revisionist (NOT) reporting that the R Administrations were/are. And bless those idiot journOlists who seem to forget that we’ve been in Germany, Japan and Korea for a damn-site longer than we’ve been in Iraq or Afghanistan - and that it has paid off in the terms of stability for those nations - oh say compared to the disaster of cut and run Vietnam.
Americans would not appear to be so self-centric nor foreign policy/World stupid - if the Leaders weren’t such duplicitous liars and the MSM so concerned with only reporting in a vapid Pop Culture Microwave Society way (i.e. Cult of Personality reporting as opposed to a little truth and depth on real World happenings). But then there could be no divisions of class envy, belittling the oppositions with personal smears nor a population so dumbed down as to believe that the idiots in power right now are ‘the ones we’ve been waiting for’, instead of the same old lying cheating grifters attempting to keep us all in socialist slavery to ‘The Man’. While dumping millions, strike that billions of our hard earned money onto people and cultures that wish us wiped from the face of the earth. That alone would make me an isolationist, except that these crapweasels in DC wouldn’t lower our tax burden - they’d just come up with a zillion more wasteful and useless scam programs to dump the money into, to funnel to themselves and there buddies.
I can’t wait to see how long it takes America to get out from under the crap that The Won has instituted and smuggled in hidden into the depths of multiple thousand page pieces of bogus and un-Constitutional ‘legislation’. And given that, what makes him any different than the other dictators of the World? Not killing us - no he’s too much of a coward, he’s letting the illegals and radical extremist terrorists who happen to be islamic do that for him.
2012 can’t come soon enough.
12/17/2010 at 03:50 PM
