Building A Better Mousegun
PS - give the cartridge a very fast rifling twist, like 1 turn in 10”. Not only will this help straight line penetration, it will encourage bullet expansion. Most pistol cartridges have quite lazy twist rates, like 1:38, while rifles have all gone to 1:10 or faster. Get with the program already.
"Of the 3 latest generation .380 ACP pocket pistols on the market, 2 specifically tell you not to use +P ammo ... The 3rd company says you can use the +P stuff, but not all the time.”
Okay, I admit it. I’m lazy. I did a quick-and-dirty google and came up with Walther, Bersa, and CZ as three makers of .380s. I’m sure there’s more, but my question is which one says it’s okay to use +P?
I like the idea of a small, easier to carry/conceal weapon like the .380, but have reservations about its power. The .380 +P sounds like a reasonable compromise.
FWIW, I use standard .38 loads in my revolvers for practice, but load them with +P for carry. My preferred carry weapon is a Springfield XD .45, but it’s hard to carry concealed comfortably (say that three times fast). I also carry a 9mm Taurus PT-111 on occasion - easier to conceal, but less capacity/stopping/killing power.
To the best of my knowledge - and I’m not on top of the latest developments - the smallest reasonably priced .380s are the Kel-Tec P3AT, its clone the Ruger LCP, and the Taurus TCP 738. Taurus says don’t use +P ammo, I’ve seen pictures of exploded LCPs that were fed it; Ruger says NO!!, and Kel-Tec says once in a while use is Ok.
There are other small .380s out there, but if you draw the line at 5.25” long and under 1 pound you thin things out quite a bit. And if you set a max price of $500 you thin them out a lot more.
Another .380 to look at is the Diamondback DB380, which has garnered several very good reviews. Folks think of it as a micro-Glock. Can it deal with +P ammo? I don’t know, but their web page says the gun is made with “Finite Element Analysis designed slide and barrel that is stronger than any comparable firearm” so it ought to be Ok, right? But I read the gun’s manual and it says don’t use reloads or +P. Is this the lawyers talking?
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/diamondback-db9-review/
http://mouseguns.com/ (mouseguns is a MUST READ site, check the chart links on left)But mainly this post was about my proposed 9x18+P, which is significantly more potent than a .380+P. For good or bad, now that the micro .380 market has been such a success, many companies are coming out with micro 9s, so my post is probably moot.
Diamondback’s DB9 model is only .1” thicker, 3oz heavier, and .5” longer than their .380, and sells for about the same; it is one of the smallest and lightest 9s out there. Words to the wise though: 9mm Luger is a snappy round, and in a tiny very lightweight pistol the recoil is going to be very quick.
Gracias, amigo, for the info.
Didn’t mean to hijack the thread about your 9x18+P. Maybe you can figure out how to manufacture it using solar power, and then get a government loan to build the factory. Doesn’t seem to matter if it’s commercially viable or not, as long as it’s green.
Congratulations, you have followed the post WW2 soviet thinking in replacing their WW1 and interwar pistols
They created a Makarov pistol using 9x18 in a military sidearm
Makarov Weights 26oz , Length 6.34 inches, barrel length 3.83 inches and the width is 1.16 inches.
So bigger and heavier than your desire.Replaced the Nagant (7,62x38R)
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/03/foghorn/gun-review-nagant-m1895-revolver/
Heavy, hard to load, quiet, terrible trigger pull (did I say how bad it is ?)Replaced the Tokarev (7,62x25)
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu59.htm
Thru and thru on the vests, can you say over-penetration and flamethrower
Makarov family
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/edu16.htm
http://forums.theboxotruth.com/showthread.php?3210-9x18-Makarov-PThe USofA loadings are weak and weaker.
The European loadings show why they chose it after the Great Patriotic War.http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?299-9x18-Ammunition-Data-Post
(Tebow of info on 9x18 ammo family)Ultra vs 9x18
http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-518341.html
(Different rounds, 9x18 Euro load is similar to .380 +P)Rick in North Georgia
Posted by RickD94
01/11/2012 at 02:07 PM
Hey, thanks for the links! I knew about the Makarov; it’s a robust but large and crunchy pistol. And being Soviet, it’s 36 1/4 caliber. Duh. It’s their knock-off of the Jerry’s P-38.
No, I had the idea for a middle of the road solution, then I looked up a list of cartridges, then I visited SAAMI, then I looked at my cartridge design software for the measurements, and then finally I looked at some history.
In a locked breech pistol the 9x18 case could handle 9x19 pressures with ease. At best the gun companies would have to build their barrels 1mm larger in diameter. By creating a new “modern” cartridge just a hair longer than the original, a “9x18.1” so to speak, the guns would use ammo built to SAAMI spec, not some nebulous “+P” rating, plus the new ammo would not fit in the older guns ... and all this would make the lawyers happy, which is what business is all about these days.
So it’s a viable solution. Right now Makarov ammo is cheap because the market is flooded with Soviet overstock. That won’t last forever, and nobody else is building anything with that cartridge. It’s an orphan in waiting.
But the market will move to micro pocket 9s, and then .40s, so the 18+P is moot. And everyone will have a mini-cannon in their pocket that they can’t shoot, that hurts to shoot, and both deafens and flash blinds the shooter when fired at night. But they’ll be powerful! IMO, a full 9x19 is too much to handle in a 9 ounce pistol. Perfectly fine in a 20oz gun, no worries. But a wrist breaker in a gun the size and mass of a pack of cigarettes. And honestly, the cartridge is wasted in any barrel shorter than 4.5”.
Rick - I followed a couple of your links. Buffalo Bore seems to be the only company out there making ammo who understands what it’s all about. Every other ammo company is selling downloaded piss. And in the Russian gun, with it’s larger bore, a 92.5gr bullet (sold as a 95gr one) will have even less sectional density than a .355” diameter bullet that weighs in at a real 95gr ... and that’s not enough.
Now if only Buffalo Bore would get around to putting proper bullets in their PD ammo. You want to know why the original .38 Special was such an effective round, even though it tossed a 158gr RN bullet at a leisurely 850fps? Because the bullet was pure lead (probably paper patched as well). And that means it expanded to quite a large diameter, and it’s mass gave it enough SD to penetrate deeply. Hard cast bullets ... phooey. They ship well, and they don’t get dinged up in your pocket. But for hunting or SD, you want a far softer alloy, probably no harder than 1:16 lead/tin. To hell with HP ammo in mouseguns; Keith-style FPs made from soft lead do the job better.
