Saturday - December 13, 2008
Pay £500,000? God help us, say couple forced by a medieval law to foot the bill for church repa
This is a very long but a MUST read! So I won’t add to this and besides, there isn’t anything I could add.
Learn something new every day.
INTERESTING!
Gail and Andrew Wallbank inherited their beautiful home. But it came with a hidden timebomb...
By Victoria Moore
Last updated at 1:03 AM on 13th December 2008This is a beautiful spot. The church of St John the Baptist stands in the Warwickshire village of Aston Cantlow, in a small churchyard scattered with gravestones and dotted with neatly trimmed yew and holly.
It’s here that Shakespeare’s parents are thought to have married, and if the walls look a little crumbly and uneven… well, perhaps that’s only to be expected of a building that dates back to the 13th century.
To Gail and Andrew Wallbank, however, the flaking masonry that surrounds the church’s stained-glass windows - and the suspiciously leaky-looking patches inside - are less a source of picturesque charm than one of stomach-gnawing anxiety.
This is because, due to a peculiar ancient law that goes back to the reign of Henry VIII, the Wallbanks, who own a nearby farmhouse, have found themselves saddled with the repair bill for the chancel - the eastern end of a church, in which the pulpit and choristers’ stalls are normally found. And it isn’t small.
At the last count, the sum owed was £186,989. Plus VAT. (They must, I think, be the only people in England feeling a real sense of relief about the 2.5per cent cut in VAT.) Oh, and then there’s the interest, which they say they are paying at 8per cent and which began accumulating in February 2007.
Add to that the £200,000 they have spent in legal fees fighting their case over the years, and the Wallbanks are looking at a figure close to half a million. ‘And it’s not as if that’s the end of it,’ says Gail, 60, fastening up a bobbly jacket that looks as if it has seen better days.
‘This could go on and on. We have to finance any repairs the chancel needs, which effectively means we’re in the position of providing an open cheque-book. We now have until February 16 to find the money and I just don’t know how we’re going to do it. We’re at our wits’ end.’
The Wallbanks are a warm, calm and attractively dishevelled couple who, as well as raising a family of seven, have been fighting the case for 18 stressful years.
So far, it has been to the High Court, the Court of Appeal and all the way to the House of Lords, which found in favour of the Parochial Church Councils (PCCs) in 2003, and in 2007 set the amount that the Wallbanks now have two months to pay.
A plague on unwitting homeownersHaving exhausted all their legal options, the couple understandably feel some degree of despair as the deadline approaches. Soon they may not be the only ones - indeed, there may be many thousands of other Britons who are unknowingly in the same position.
For the implications of what is effectively a test case could be wide-reaching: a blessing for the cash-strapped Church of England, which has many dilapidated buildings in urgent need of repair, but a plague on homeowners who may unwittingly own land - a garden, field, allotment or even the plot on which their house is built - that carries a chancel repair liability.
This, as Andrew Wallbank drily puts it, can be ‘a bit like winning the Lottery in reverse’. In other words, it can suck hundreds of thousands of pounds from the unfortunate loser’s bank account.
Such chancel repair liabilities are thought to apply to some 5,200 pre-Reformation parishes in England and Wales - though nobody knows for sure how many properties might be affected, as the legal documents are, in some cases, both ancient and in poor condition. That’s if they can be traced at all. The law in question dates back to medieval times, when the parishioners had a duty to repair the nave - the part of a church in which the congregation sits to worship - while the rector had a responsibility to repair the chancel end. A rector would pay for his share of the repairs using income from land attached to his rectory - ‘glebe land’ - as well as from tithes.
After the dissolution of the monasteries, that land was dispersed but never separated from the obligation to pay for chancel repairs, making the new landowners ‘lay rectors’.
In successive years, some of this land has been sold and re-sold, divided up, developed on and changed hands many times so that its history of liability has sometimes been forgotten. Nor is it always found in rural parishes: one case is known of in Fulham, South-West London.
Fast-forward to recent times, and the cash-strapped Church has been busy encouraging its PCCs to seek out any lay rectors it can find - and quickly, because chancel repair liabilities will become unenforceable unless they are registered at HM Land Registry by 2013. For some people, their happy ignorance may be about to come to a halt, as it did for the Wallbanks.
‘I inherited Glebe Farm, which is about half a mile away from the church, from my father,’ explains Gail. ‘We were actually married in the church, in September 1973, but moved away from Aston Cantlow a few years later to live on a sheep farm in Wales.
‘After my father died, rather than sell the farmhouse or move back, we rented it out. At first, my mother and brother lived here; afterwards we had other tenants.’
And then, out of the blue one day at the beginning of 1990, a letter arrived from the church wardens of St John the Baptist.
‘We hope that you are well and are enjoying your life in that beautiful part of Wales in which you now live,’ it began with ominous good cheer. But it then continued: ‘As the owner of Glebe Farm, you know that there is a charge. . . for the maintenance and the repair of the Chancel of St John the Baptist.’
It went on to detail the outcome of an architect’s report, which suggested that a large amount of expensive work needed to be done to the Grade I listed church - among which were three windows that needed repairing at a cost of £2,000 each - and concluded that, ‘if a large job is necessary, we are obliged to ask for your financial support’.
The ever-increasing demands for cash
To Gail and her husband Andrew, far more alarming than this polite request for money was its open-ended nature. As Mrs Wallbank puts it: ‘We didn’t mind making a voluntary donation to its upkeep - someone, after all, has to pay for these beautiful old buildings and we’d got married in this church - but the fear was that this would go on and on. If we paid one year, how much the next, and the next? How much would it end up costing us?’
The answer to that we now know to be about £200,000. But back then the Wallbanks were merely at the start of a protracted legal odyssey that has consumed their lives for almost two decades since.
They have had to become experts in tithe law, and spend days poring over the minutes of PCC committee meetings. They have even commissioned experts to transcribe an 18th-century Enclosures Award document written on vellum - fine parchment made from calfskin - so fragile it can be handled only by someone wearing gloves and whose script is so faint it must be examined under ultraviolet light.
Mrs Wallbank’s father bought Glebe Farm at auction in 1970 (a year when the average house price was £4,950) for the sum of £41,500. The sale documents do include a clear reference to the chancel repair liability, which it notes ‘is still subsisting and capable of being enforced’.
Gail, however, says her father had made inquiries, including with the vicar at the time, and was confident this clause was a mere anachronism with no legal force. Thus, on inheriting the farm, she too felt reassured that this amounted to nothing more than a gentleman’s agreement.
With the benefit of hindsight, this assumption sounds naive. But the Wallbanks point to the handwritten minutes of an extraordinary meeting of the PCC in July 1968 which was concerned with raising funds for work on the chancel roof. In these, it is noted: ‘Vicar said that while he would approach Mr Terry [the then owner of Glebe farm] he had been informed by Diocesean lawyers that this [obligation] had no weight in law.’
The Wallbanks also say they have been unable to find any case in which any owner of Glebe Farm has, over the centuries, been required to foot any bill for the chancel, though some have done so voluntarily.
‘My father had also made a contribution to the church repairs,’ says Gail. ‘He paid for some of the ornamentation on the church tower to be replaced, and that wasn’t connected at all to the chancel.’
The church fights back
SEE CHURCH FIGHTS BACK for all the photos and the rest of the story. Yes, there’s more.
Posted by peiper on 12/13/2008 at 04:21 PM
Filed Under: • Economics • Religion • Taxes • UK •
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Thursday - December 11, 2008
CHRISTMAS CAROLS ARE TOO DARN RELIGIOUS AND SOMETHING HAS TO BE DONE. QUICKLY!
ONE JUST HAS TO WONDER, WHAT THE HELL ARE THESE DUMMIES THINKING?
If you think about it deeply however ... really deeply ..... you’re still left scratching your head asking, what are these folks thinking?
We can’t have religious tomes nor carols that smack of ... GASP .... Religion.
The world is deeply crazy and far too many people in official places are pandering to and encouraging the most bizarre ideas and behavior. This has nothing to due with freedom of anything. It has all to do with being stupid.
Imagine that will ya. Songs at Christmas (Christ-Mass?) should not have a religious theme.
I just can not imagine my mother’s generation or the ones before, being taken in by this stupidity. I can’t begin to imagine them accepting this without slapping down the idiots who propose this nonsense. It’s unacceptable and grossly outrageous.
School choir forced to pull out of Christmas concert as carols were ‘too religious’
By Andrew Levy
Last updated at 1:34 PM on 11th December 2008A school choir was forced to withdraw from a Christmas event because organisers branded its carols ‘too religious’.
Around 60 children aged between seven and 11 had spent six weeks practising favourites including Once In Royal David’s City and Silent Night for the Corringham Winter Festival.
But they were let down at the last minute when their headteacher was informed their programme did not ‘dovetail’ with the festival’s theme.
The event ended up going ahead last week with non-religious music and displays from an Irish school of dancing and performing arts students.
The snub was widely criticised yesterday by furious parents and religious leaders who accused the organisers of pandering to the politically correct brigade.
Nicola Hales, 36, whose nine-year-old daughter Rhiannon goes to Arthur Bugler County Junior School in Stanford-le-Hope, Essex, said: ‘They must have been practising for about six weeks.
‘All the programmes had gone out with the school’s name on it but we got a newsletter home saying sorry for the confusion. I heard it was because the songs were too religious.
‘It’s ridiculous that you can’t sing religious songs. It’s Chistmas - when can you sing them?’
Another parent, who delined to be named, said: ‘The school was advised by the organisers that the carols they had chosen were not suitable because they were deemed to have a religious theme. The kids were really disappointed.
‘I can’t see how the Christmas carols they were going to sing would have been offensive to anyone.’
The Prayer Book Society, said ‘winter festivals’ were threatening traditional Christmas celebrations.
Chairman Prudence Dailey added: ‘These politically correct winter festivals seek to make Christmas part of a ‘multi-faith’ mix and hark back to pagan winter solstice observance.
‘They see Christmas as merely a local seasonal event and miss its central religious significance at the heart of national identity.
‘Perhaps organisers would benefit from reading the Book of Common Prayer and discovering what winter festivities are in fact about.’
Father David Rollins, of St John the Evangelist Church in Corringham, added: ‘It’s rather disappointing. Christmas is a major Christian event.’
The school’s headteacher, Sue Morris, said pupils had taken part in ‘a great deal of rehearsal’ before they were informed the songs ‘would not have dovetailed into the event’s theme’.
‘There was no time to reorganise the choir’s planned programme and we thought it best we did not take part,’ she added.
The non-religious event was planned by Corringham Town Festival Partnership, even though the area is in Thurrock, where 75 per cent of the population described themselves as Christian in the 2001 census.
The next biggest religious group was Muslims, who make up one per cent of the population, followed by Sikhs, who account for barely half of one per cent of residents.
A spokesman for Thurrock Islamic Education and Cultural Association said: ‘I don’t think any Muslims would be offended by carols.’
There has been growing concern in recent years at the burgeoning politically correct attitude to Christmas because of concerns that people of other faiths will be offended or feel excluded.
Councils have started celebrating winter festivals or wintervals, businesses are banning staff from putting up Christmas decorations and there is a thriving industry for cards with non-religious themes.
Last year the Bishop of St David’s in Pembrokeshire, the Rt Rev Carl Cooper, warned political correctness was destroying the meaning of Christmas.
‘Teachers and other public servants have become paralysed with fear and political correctness. They need to regain confidence in our culture and traditions,’ he said.
The chairman of the Corringham Town Festival Partnership yesterday made the bizarre claim carols had been dumped because the winter festival was meant to be ‘upbeat’.
‘It was nothing to do with being politically correct or anti-Christian, it was a Christian celebration,’ he said.
Posted by peiper on 12/11/2008 at 03:18 PM
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Thursday - December 04, 2008
So, just how stark raving mad have these folks become? See for yourself.
Have to thank Thorolf for reminding me about this.
I found it early this morning, got busy and then forgot all about it. Till a few minutes ago.
Talk about STUPID PEOPLE!
School cancels Christmas nativity in favour of Muslim Eid celebrations
A junior school has cancelled its Christmas performances because they got in the way of the Muslim children celebrating Eid.
Greenwood Junior School sent out a letter to parents saying the three day festival of Eid al-Adha, which takes place between 8-11 December, meant that Muslim children would be off school.
That meant planning for a traditional pantomime were shelved because the school felt it would be too difficult to run both celebrations side by side.
The move has left parents furious.
Janette Lynch, whose seven-year-old son Keanu attends the school, in Sneinton, Nottingham, said: “The head has a whole year to plan for Eid and so she should be able to plan for both religious festivals.
“I have never heard of this at a school. It is the first year my son has been there and a lot of the mums like me were really looking forward to seeing the children on stage.”
She said a letter, sent from “The staff at Greenwood Junior School’, said: “It is with much regret that we have had to cancel this year’s Christmas performances. This is due to the Eid celebrations that take place next week and its effect on our performers.”
Following outrage from parents, the school was forced to send out a second letter saying that the Christmas play would be done in January.
Sent by the head teacher, Amber Latif, and Yvonne Wright, chair of governors, it apologised for “any misunderstanding” but said it had to respect “the cultures and religions of all the children”.
It added: “The Christmas performance has not been cancelled outright but has been postponed until the New Year.”
Parents said they were originally told the performance was cancelled because children wanted to celebrate Eid with their families at home, and planning of the school year made it difficult to move performance dates to another week.
Sajad Hussain, 35, of who has two children at Greenwood Junior, said: “My children will be off for the two days next week to see their family.
“It’s not that complicated; they could have one event on one day and another on another day, they should have both celebrations at the school.
“If you do not have both it becomes a racist thing and that’s why you have to be careful If an issue is made out of it, it could become nasty.”
Yesterday, a statement issued by Greenwood Junior, said: “We would like to apologise for any confusion caused as a result of [the original] letter we sent out and would like to reassure parents and the community that Christmas has not been cancelled at Greenwood Junior School.
“For very practical reasons we have taken the difficult decision to re-arrange some significant events on the school calendar to ensure maximum pupil and staff attendance.”
FRAKEN MUZZIES
“Difficult Decision” my achin’ butt. Nothing at all difficult about putting on a Christmas play in Jan and offending the “other” majority religion. That’s because Christians are easy targets nowadays and there isn’t any protest with violent threats coming from the “majority” community. What a load of garbage this is.
RCOB! And I’m not even a religious person, but this bothers me. This IS a Christian country. Wait, maybe I have that wrong. It WAS a Christian country. Long ago and far away. That was a song title, or else a line in a song and it dates back to the second war. I think.
Speaking of war, if the Tommy Atkins who fought for this island in two wars could have seen this future,
THEY’D HAVE STAYED HOME OR JOINED THE OTHER SIDE!
I simply refuse to believe that those old dogs of war would fight and die and be maimed for life, for this future. NO WAY! No damn way!
I have been here more then four years now watching these folks give away their country and it’s damn awful. What it is, is heartbreaking!
I swear I think everything is falling apart here. Even on simple little things that you wouldn’t think mattered. From workmen who never show up and people who never call to let you know about schedule changes, to ordering items in a catalog and getting the wrong items not once, not 2wice, but three times for the same damn thing. There’s a rot that has set in and I’m certain of it.
Posted by peiper on 12/04/2008 at 07:08 PM
Filed Under: • Education • Religion • RoPMA • UK •
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Wednesday - October 29, 2008
let there be light!
Hindus the world over are celebrating Diwali again right now. It’s a festival that celebrates the victory of the good over the evil. Good is symbolized by light and color, standing out against the evil darkness. It’s also a New Year’s Eve celebration, as their lunar calendar begins anew.
I think it’s a very nice annual event, that reminds nearly a quarter of the world that things can be better.
Ok, diwali is actually a lot more complicated than my simple description*, and it has roots that reach waaay back in time and deep into their religion:
The story goes like this: Prince Rama, the rightful heir to his father’s throne, was banished to the forest for 14 years by his wicked stepmother. While there, Rama’s wife was kidnapped by the evil King Ravan of a neighboring land. A battle ensued and Rama rescued his wife, defeated Ravan and returned to his kingdom to reclaim his throne.
In celebration of Rama’s victory, people feasted and lit oil lamps in their homes. And that was the first Diwali, which is short for Deepawali or “row of lights” in Sanskrit. Today, the festival, which falls in late October or early November, is celebrated according to regional customs.
Most mark the day by worshipping Lakshmi, the Hindu goddess of prosperity and Ganesh, the god of wisdom and good fortune; visiting loved ones and exchanging homemade traditional sweets. Also, following a half-hour prayer service, or puja after sunset, children light the diyas (the oil lamps) that have been placed around the house on each windowsill and on flat rooftops. Others may worship the goddess Kali instead of Lakshmi, set off fireworks and pass out small amounts of cash to everyone present at the celebration.
Diwali is observed nationally, the most widely celebrated festival on the Hindu calendar and an affair that reaffirms the bonds of family and close friends.
It’s a happy time for them, and makes for pretty pictures for the rest of us. And a little happy news is nice.
Posted by Drew458 on 10/29/2008 at 12:59 AM
Filed Under: • International • Religion •
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Tuesday - October 28, 2008
Islamists stone to death Somali woman for adultery.
Gee, maybe if the west gives them some money for health and safety and education and medicine and ... oh yeah. West already has. Many times over the many years.
OK.. maybe if the west gives even more. And keeps on giving. Right. I didn’t think so either.
It will NEVER, EVER make a bit of difference.
Islamists stone to death Somali woman for adultery
By Daily Mail Reporter
Somali Islamists have stoned to death a woman accused of adultery in the first such public killing by the militants for about two years, witnesses said.
The 23-year-old woman was placed in a hole up to her neck for the execution late on Monday in front of hundreds of people in a square of the southern port of Kismayu, which the Islamist insurgents captured in August.
Stones were hurled at her head, and she was brought out of the hole three times to see if she had died.
When a relative and others surged forward, guards opened fire, killing a child, the witnesses said.
‘A woman in green veil and black mask was brought in a car as we waited to watch the merciless act of stoning,’ one local resident, Abdullahi Aden, told Reuters.
‘We were told she submitted herself to be punished, yet we could see her screaming as she was forcefully bound, legs and hands. A relative of hers ran towards her, but the Islamists opened fire and killed a child.’
The Islamists last carried out public executions when they ruled Mogadishu and most of south Somalia for half of 2006.
Allied Ethiopian and Somali government forces toppled them at the end of that year, but they have waged an Iraq-style guerrilla campaign since then, gradually taking territory back.
As when they ruled Mogadishu in 2006, the Islamists now controlling the Kismayu area are again providing much-needed security, but also imposing fundamentalist practices such as banning entertainment seen as anti-Islamic.
Relatives of the woman executed in Kismayu, whom they named as Asha Ibrahim Dhuhulow, were furious.
‘The stoning was totally irreligious and illogical,’ said her sister, who asked not to be named. ‘Islam does not execute a woman for adultery unless four witnesses and the man with whom she committed sex are brought forward publicly.’
Islamist leaders at the execution said the woman had breached Islamic law. They promised to punish the guard who had shot the child in the melee around the execution.
‘We apologise for killing the child. And we promise we shall bring the one who opened fire before the courts and deal with him accordingly,’ one unnamed Islamist leader told the crowd.’
Last updated at 2:15 PM on 28th October 2008
Posted by Drew458 on 10/28/2008 at 03:25 PM
Filed Under: • Religion • RoPMA • Terrorists •
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Saturday - October 11, 2008
The trouble with Wikipedia
WorldNetDaily is promoting a video about the Feast of Tabernacles. This piqued my curiosity and I turned to, where else, Wikipedia’s entry for Feast of Tabernacles. This is some of the info I found:
Many of the laws of melcha (forbidden activity) that apply on Shabbat also apply on Sukkot, such as the prohibition against engaging in commerce, lighting a fire, or completing an electrical circuit. Other Shabbat prohibitions, however, are relaxed. With various differences based on one’s religious orientation, one is permitted to cook (so long as the fire is pre-existing), and carry material things from domain to domain. One is not allow to touch cold sea water nor engage in activities involving power tools or hammers weighing more than 2 ounces (biblical weight). One can observe the building or repairing of structures but must limit ones self to strictly observation and criticism when involved with the construction or repair of ones own home. Based n Leviticus 2:3 “Lo! and Moses Smote Leordecheia sharply with a scroll of thine days news.” saying"Vat dah chell are you doink hire someone will you!! vat do you know about this stuff vat are you a carpenter!!!?”
That’s not in my translation of Leviticus. What thinkest thou? Hacked?
Posted by Christopher on 10/11/2008 at 11:41 AM
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Monday - October 06, 2008
OK, EVEN IF YOU DON’T AGREE WITH EVERYTHING, THIS IS A MUST WATCH AND LISTEN VIDEO.
Just before getting ready to shut down for the night, I paid a visit to Vilmar’s site where I stole this.
I don’t think he’ll mind me doing that.
Now then, please, please stay with this fellow even if it is a mite hard to watch because he’s jumps a lot.
This really does have a large WOW factor.
One of the things I’ve always liked about Vilmar, is his take no prisoners attitude and kick the hell out of the left when ya have em down.
Well, while this young man might not be Vilmar he sure does score some points and doesn’t seem to worry much about prisoners either.
NOW THEN ... WANNA TALK ABOUT TAKE NO PRISONERS?
HE GOES ON AGAIN HERE. THIS YOUNG FELLA IS ON A ROLL.
Thanks Vilmar. http://antzinpantz.com/kns/ and thanks as well to Sndrak, which is where V got it. http://tinyurl.com/48qoj8
Posted by Drew458 on 10/06/2008 at 06:43 PM
Filed Under: • Commies • Democrats-Liberals-Moonbat Leftists • Racism and race relations • Religion • Republicans •
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Thursday - August 28, 2008
MUSLIM CITY COUNCIL CHIEFS IN UK WANT A BAN EVEN FOR NON-MUDSLIMES DURING RAMADAMN
How about this latest from a member of the ROP. I hope they all freekin die!
These SOBs just can’t be happy unless and until EVERYONE is under their greasy unwashed collective thumbs.
Screw em all! I hope the Brits will not cave in to this latest bit of BS! I don’t believe they will on this one.
Yeah ... It RCOB time. OK, it isn’t the entire country this one idiot is talking about but. As I see it it’s simply the first of how many future demands to be made.
No doubt this a-hole won’t get his way but even asking is an outrage. Imagine if you will the reaction of this minority (for now) group if they were asked to observe a Jewish or a Christian practice for a month?
Muslim council chiefs ban ALL members from ‘tea and sandwiches’ in meetings which take place during Ramadan
By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 1:04 PM on 28th August 200Muslim council leaders have sparked outrage after trying to ban all councillors eating in meetings until sunset during the holy month of Ramadan.
Politicians have hit out after the move to impose hardline Islamic rules on non-Muslim colleagues throughout September.
The bombshell has been dropped by Labour chiefs of the notoriously loony Tower Hamlets Council in east London.
The storm was sparked by an e-mail sent to all councillors this week highlighting arrangements for Town Hall committee meetings next month, which marks the Muslim fasting period of Ramadan.
The memo said that new council leader Lutfur Rahman and his deputy, Siraj Islam, had requested that meetings be kept to a minimum to accommodate fasting councillors.They have also urged all other councillors to resist eating until the breaking of the fast at sunset.
Cllr Stephanie Eaton, leader of the Lib Dem group on the left-wing East End authority, said she would be ignoring the new Ramadan regime.
She insisted the new Labour leadership was favouring one religious group over others.
Cllr Eaton said: ‘The Liberal Democrats have enormous respect for the contribution of all faith groups and cultures to the life of the community of Tower Hamlets.
‘But we fervently believe that the rules of any one religion should not be imposed upon others.’
It is the first time such a request has been made and it comes as Ramadan falls earlier this year during the longer daylight hours.
(bet it won’t be the last either)Council bosses have also ordered that the town hall’s business agenda should be reduced, with only seven scheduled committee meetings for the entire month, to deal with the Ramadan restrictions.
(Sure thing. Give in to keep the peace on another issue and keep on toadying. Kick em out of this country is the answer. They DO NOT BELONG HERE!)
Officers have also been barred from arranging any more and been told to explore ways of dropping some of the scheduled seven.Those going ahead generally start at about 6.30pm.
So with sunset due to fall just after 7.30pm at the beginning of September and around 6.30pm by the end of Ramadan, the breaking of the fast will take place during meetings.
At those points, there will be 45-minute adjournments to allow members to eat and pray, council leaders have ordered.
But it is the arrangements for the food and other refreshments that has angered Cllr Eaton and the rest of her party, which includes two Muslim councillors.
Normally tea, coffee and sandwiches are set aside for councillors to nibble at during evening meetings.
But during Ramadan these will be reduced and complemented by special Muslim food packs containing chicken, lamb and vegetarian snacks.
But in his email, John Williams, the council’s head of democratic services, said: ‘It is requested that members do not partake of any refreshments until after the Iftar refreshments are served.’
Cllr Eaton said that was going too far. Speaking on behalf of all her stunned party colleagues, she said: ‘I was rather disconcerted to see that the arrangements put in place for Ramadan, which we support for Muslim colleagues, have been imposed upon all councillors.
‘We object to the request that non-Muslim councillors observe the fasting rules for Ramadan.
‘This sends out the wrong message to our community.Our community consists of a huge number of different religions, all of which should be valued, and no one religion should be accorded more status or influence than others.
‘Freedom of belief is an important human right, and we Liberal Democrat councillors, Muslim and non-Muslim, agree that this request is inappropriate.’
Cllr Eaton has also written to Town Hall bosses about her concerns that their move ‘will not enhance community cohesion and asking for their reassurance that no faith is given any particular status or priority in the operation or decisions of the council’.
Council bosses said their arrangements were in place ‘where it is not reasonable to expect members observing Ramadan, and who are required to attend a formal committee or other meeting, to travel home in time for sundown in order to break fast and undertake prayers’.
Ramadan is the ninth month of the Islamic
Lunarlooney calendar and the holiest of the four holy months. It begins with the sighting of the new moon after which all physically mature and healthy Muslims are obliged to abstain from all food, drink, gum chewing, any kind of tobacco use, and any kind of sexual contact between dawn and sunset.
Posted by Drew458 on 08/28/2008 at 01:45 PM
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Wednesday - July 09, 2008
SOME PATRIOTIC SWISS IN MOVE TO PROTECT THEIR COUNTRY FROM islam
Swiss to vote on minaret building ban
By Daily Telegraph reporter
Last Updated: 12:44PM BST 09/07/2008Swiss nationalists have forced a nationwide referendum on whether to ban the construction of minarets where Muslims issue the call to prayer.
If approved the proposal would clash with Switzerland’s constitutionally protected right to freedom of religion.
(No,no it does not clash with anything. This is all about Noise Abatement)The Interior Ministry said it received a proposal on Tuesday with more than the required 100,000 signatures.
It was submitted by members of the nationalist Swiss People’s Party and the fringe Federal Democratic Union, who say they are acting to fight the political spread of Islam. They argue that the minaret is a symbol of political and religious claim to power rather than a mere religious sign.
People’s party lawmaker Walter Wobmann defended the move, saying the authorization for constructing a minaret in Winterthur near Zurich and pending requests in three other Swiss towns have exceeded the limits of many Swiss people’s tolerance.
“Many recognize in this a further step in the creeping Islamization of Switzerland,” he said.
(creeping Islamization of Europe in general.)It’s not the first time the People’s Party has ignited a provocative campaign. Recently they embarked on an anti-immigrant initiative, complete with posters showing a black sheep being kicked off a Swiss flag and dark hands grabbing at a pile of Swiss passports.
Swiss voters last month, however, overwhelmingly rejected their proposal to make it harder for foreigners to gain citizenship.
(more fools they then, as their country will surely be stolen from them. That part the liberals don’t just give away)Still, construction of traditional mosques and minarets in European countries has rarely been a trouble-free affair. Sweden, France, Italy, Austria, Greece, Germany and Slovenia are among the countries which have experienced opposition or protests against such projects.
In Cologne, Germany, plans to expand the city’s Ditib Mosque and complete it with dome and two 54-meter-tall (177-feet-tall) minarets, have triggered an angry response from right-wing groups and the city’s Roman Catholic Archbishop.
Slovenia’s Constitutional Court in 2004 banned a move to hold a referendum on the building of a mosque.
Switzerland’s unique system of grass roots democracy allows political hard-liners to take the issue further than in other European countries, where constitutional courts or governments have blocked moves against mosques and minarets. Any Swiss citizen who collects 100,000 signatures within 18 months can put a popular initiative to a nationwide vote.
No date has been set for the referendum. If it is approved, the Swiss parliament must pass a law enshrining a construction ban in the constitution.
Minarets are tall spires typically built next to mosques where religious leaders call the faithful to prayer. There are currently only two minarets in the country, attached to mosques in Zurich and Geneva. Neither is used for calls to prayer.
Opponents of a construction ban say it would violate religious freedom. More than 310,000 of Switzerland’s 7.5 million people are Muslims, according to the Federal Statistical Office.
A United Nations expert on racism, Doudou Diene, says the campaign is evidence of an “ever-increasing trend” toward anti-Islamic actions in Europe.
(Well duh, we wonder why that is. Of course, it couldn’t possibly be anything they bring on themselves.)The Swiss government is concerned about the impact the referendum will have on its international image. Swiss President Pascal Couchepin said the government will recommend that voters reject the proposed ban. Other members of Switzerland’s cross-party government have also spoken out against the ban.
(OK, lets see. What do we want. Hmmm, choices,choices. Save our country or have a happy feel good image among foreigners? Gee, that’s a hard one to decide huh? Country? Image? Can we vote on it?)Foreign Minister Micheline Calmy-Rey has warned that the anti-minaret initiative would lead to a security risk for Switzerland because it could spark Muslim’s anger.
(oh well then hell. Lets turn turn the country over to an alien breed who don’t fit and never will. Lets by all means surrender now and pray for good terms.)Henri-Maxime Khedoud, spokesman for the Swiss Association of Muslims for Secularism, said that although the Swiss mosques don’t really need minarets, the initiative was an attack against Muslims and contrary to the freedom of everyone to practice his faith.
(Oh bull S#*!. They can practice their damn faith without being noisy about it and disturbing the more civilized citizens of the country. What. They can’t practice their faith without minarets? Heaven help the Swiss cause only a few patriots are on hand to do so. )
http://tinyurl.com/6g8gf5
Posted by Drew458 on 07/09/2008 at 11:05 AM
Filed Under: • EUro-peons • Religion • RoPMA •
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Sunday - June 01, 2008
So, B. Hussein Obama leaves Trinity
I was going to just leave this as a comment on Drew’s earlier post, but I decided it was too good a question to leave languishing in the comments.
So, the question is asked: What if Romney left the LDS Church?
(emphasis added)As I type this, the news channel is blaring with filler waiting for Barack Obama to comment publicly on his announcement early today that he’s leaving the Trinity Unity Church of Christ, presumably as a consequence of the videotape of Father Michael Pfleger’s sermon in which he mentions Hillary Clinton. Obama has been attending Trinity for 20 years, and so questions are being raised about “what does he know now that he didn’t know then?”
Here’s the thought experiment that springs to mind: suppose Mitt Romney announced that he was leaving the LDS Church. Do you think that the media, or the Political Left, or the Religious Right would simply assume that he had truly abandoned LDS beliefs and history? What would Romney have to say and do in order for these groups to accept his word that he truly rejected the LDS Church? Burn his temple recommend? Drink wine and coffee in public? Ask to have his name removed from Church records?
And if he did all this, what would these groups then say about his integrity, judgment, and honesty?
On the other hand, how would Romney (say he were the GOP VP candidate) react if reporters started attending his home ward meetings and taking notes about Sacrament meeting talks and Sunday School/Priesthood lessons? (I suspect his reaction would be to sic the missionaries on them, but still….) And I’m sure that he’s be more than thrilled if they started listening to General Conference.
Comments? ..bruce..
(I have no idea who bruce is.)
I would love the press to do just that. Let us see the contrast. You can listen to General Conference here. Hell Heck, you can watch it too. Compare to the messages coming out of Trinity Unity Church (alleged) of Christ. Messages that Obama liked so well he stayed over 20 years, and gave thousands of dollars to keep the messages coming.
Romney should never have had to defend himself for being LDS. The Obamination, on the other hand, should just be roasted continuously.
Posted by Christopher on 06/01/2008 at 09:50 PM
Filed Under: • Politics • Religion •
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Saturday - April 26, 2008
The Other Side Of Pat
Another Pat Condell video. You might not like it, but it should get a reaction out of you, one way or the other. Herein Pat talks about spirituality vs. religion. Is he right or is he wrong, and if so, where? Have at it in the comments.
On Pat’s MySpace page for this video, one commenter pasted in an Emo Phillips joke, which seems relavent:
“I was walking across a bridge one day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said “Stop! don’t do it!” “Why shouldn’t I?” he said. I said, “Well, there’s so much to live for!” He said, “Like what?” I said, “Well…are you religious or atheist?” He said, “Religious.” I said, “Me too! Are you Christian or Buddhist?” He said, “Christian.” I said, “Me too! Are you Catholic or Protestant?” He said, “Protestant.” I said, “Me too! Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?” He said, “Baptist!” I said,”Wow! Me too! Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?” He said, “Baptist Church of God!” I said, “Me too! Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you reformed Baptist Church of God?” He said,”Reformed Baptist Church of God!” I said, “Me too! Are you reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?” He said, “Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915!” I said, “Die, heretic scum”, and pushed him off.”
Posted by Drew458 on 04/26/2008 at 03:09 PM
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Tuesday - March 25, 2008
Muslims ‘to outnumber traditional churchgoers’
Maybe I should repost last weeks new map of europe and uk.
Hmmm ... wonder how my wife would take to burka. I’ll have to ask. Or better yet, get back home to USA soonest. Ya think?
By Jonathan Petre, Religion Correspondent
Last Updated: 3:05am GMT 25/03/2008The increasing influence of Islam on British culture is disclosed in research today that shows the number of Muslims worshipping at mosques in England and Wales will outstrip the numbers of Roman Catholics going to church in little more than a decade.
Projections show Muslims are to outstrip Catholic Sunday worshippers by 2020Projections to be published next month estimate that, if trends continue, the number of Catholic worshippers at Sunday Mass will fall to 679,000 by 2020.
By that time, statisticians predict, the number of Muslims praying in mosques on Fridays will have increased to 683,000.
The Christian Research figures also suggest that, over the same period, the number of Muslims at mosques will overtake Church of England members at Sunday services.
Church spokesmen point out, however, that a growing number of Anglicans worship at other times of the week.
The projections show that, if the Churches do not reverse their historical decline, there will be more active Muslims than Christians in Sunday services across Britain before the middle of the century.
The figures, based on Government and academic sources and the latest edition of Christian Research’s Religious Trends, come amid growing tensions over the place of Muslims in British society.
They follow fierce rows over the extent to which Islamic law should be recognised and over claims that “no-go” areas for non-Muslims are emerging in parts of the country.
Dr Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, provoked criticism by saying the introduction of some aspects of sharia into British society was “unavoidable”.
The Bishop of Rochester, the Rt Rev Michael Nazir-Ali, faced death threats after writing in The Sunday Telegraph that Islamic extremism was turning some communities into “no-go” areas “where adherence to this ideology has become a mark of acceptability”.
Peter Brierley, a former Government statistician who edited the latest Religious Trends, said that the continuing growth of the Muslim population since the 2001 census would have significant implications for society.
Posted by Drew458 on 03/25/2008 at 12:50 PM
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Monday - March 17, 2008
A “FAITH-HATE CRIME” or JUST KIDS HAVING FUN?
it may not be part of the story but .... I just couldn’t resist this
Canon Ainsworth’s wife ‘shocked by attack’
Last Updated: 1:09am GMT 17/03/2008
http://tinyurl.com/ysacfdThe wife of vicar who was beaten up by youths in a suspected faith hate crime yesterday spoke of the “shock and distress” caused by the attack.
With her husband still recovering in hospital yesterday, Jan Ainsworth - herself an ordained priest - took over the service at his east London church.
Canon Michael Ainsworth, 57, was set upon by two Asian youths after confronting a gang outside St George-in-the-East Church in Tower Hamlets.
At the time of the attack, the clergyman was wearing his dog collar and it is alleged that one of the attackers shouted “f***ing priest” during the assault on March 5 at around 7pm.
It is thought that Canon Ainsworth went outside the church to ask three youths to quieten down. He was then punched and kicked by two of them and suffered from cuts, bruises and two black eyes.
He was taken to hospital and treated, but later had to be readmitted because of complications to a nose injury.
Taking the Palm Sunday service, Mrs Ainsworth told churchgoers: “He is making a recovery, it is taking a while but I expect him home on Monday.”
The 18th century church has regularly had windows smashed by youths, who on one occasion shouted: This should not be a church, this should be a mosque.”
The borough has a large Muslim community and it was feared that the incident might inflame tensions in the area. But members of the church yesterday suggested that youth thuggery, rather than religious bigotry, may have been behind the attack.
Mrs Ainsworth said: “There is a lot of shock and distress around the congregation and the area.”
She said the attack took place in a part of the church’s grounds in which youths were known to congregate.
She added: “Quite clearly there are mindless individuals in every community, quite often under the influence of drink or drugs, that engage in random acts of violence. The community organisations here are very shocked.”
Interfaith relations in the area are “very good” she said, adding: “We have had very strong messages of support from East London mosque and Tower Hamlets mosque.”
One churchgoer, Rodney Sawers, 58, said: “I am appalled. Canon Ainsworth is a gem, we are lucky to have him. He is so kindly, without being a softy.”
Scotland Yard said that the incident was being treated as a suspected faith hate crime.
Posted by Drew458 on 03/17/2008 at 01:46 PM
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Saturday - February 09, 2008
Sharia courts? Get off your knees, Archbishop
Papers full of the news today that people want the Arch (idiot) of Canterbury
to resign. But he says huh?
Sharia courts? Get off your knees, Archbishop
By Simon Heffer
Last Updated: 12:01am GMT 09/02/2008Page 1 of 3
The TelegraphClergymen inevitably spend much time on their knees. They are supposed to be there in prayer. However, as Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury, has demonstrated, the Church of England, in particular, loves to genuflect not just to God, but to any threat to the culture of which we all thought it was a central part.
Although we are a secular society - and I stress I write this as an unbeliever myself - the culture of our nation is fundamentally Christian. It cannot but be so when our head of state is also Supreme Governor of the established Church. No one chose that our society should be this way: it is how it has evolved. It has evolved through general consent, under a rule of law, and (for the last 200 years at any rate) via the democratic process. And, as a result, our culture and way of life are accepted to be a sensible basis for our all living together reasonably contentedly.
Why, then, has this idiotic man suggested that some elements of Islam’s sharia law should be recognised in Britain? There is no call for it among the majority of Britons, who are quite satisfied with us all being subject to the same laws, and certainly no call for it among his flock. He is doing it for the traditional, British liberal reason: he seeks to capitulate to anyone who offers to challenge the status quo.
All appeasement of those who threaten a settlement - whether it be political, religious, cultural, legal or a mixture of all four - is dangerous and stupid. It is the thin end of the wedge to the overthrow of that settlement. The archbishop argues that Muslims should not be forced to choose between their culture and their country of adoption. I’m sorry, but that is precisely what they - and anybody from any different culture who comes here - must do.
It is not just that having one law for Muslims and another for everyone else would be fatal to the rule of law, to the coherence of our society, and to any sense of nationhood. It is not even just that it would fuel anti-Muslim extremism, as the opportunist, grandstanding race-relations commissar Trevor Phillips has said. It would fuel pro-Muslim extremism too and, frankly, that it is even more dangerous. It would make a minority of Muslims believe that this country was theirs for the taking, whether the majority liked it or not: and what sort of society would that lead to?
If Muslim nations wish to have sharia law, then so be it.However, just as we are always being warned about features of our culture that might offend Muslims, let Muslims - and Dr Williams - be in no doubt that there are aspects of sharia law that offend us. The subjection of women, which degrades and humiliates them, is the most notable. The archbishop seems to imagine that sharia law’s adoption could be confined to matters such as financial transactions and divorce.
But why should it stop there? Indeed, how could it?
The Church of England has long dined à la carte from the menu of Christian doctrine. The Ten Commandments have become mostly optional. Homosexuality, divorce and abortion are demanded as rights by certain sections of the Anglican communion, and no prelate seems to dare to contradict them. The Church has brought itself into contempt by acting in this way. Now, though, perhaps Dr Williams imagines Muslims will dine à la carte from the Koran. He must be mad.
A man in his position should defend our way of life and, above all, defend the unity of our society. That unity is already fragile: and this disgraceful act of appeasement, as well as showing the archbishop is unfit to occupy St Augustine’s Throne, threatens to shatter it. If the Church of England has any point, it is to stand up for the prevalence of English and Christian values. We like our country as it is. For God’s sake, Williams, get off your knees.
Posted by Drew458 on 02/09/2008 at 05:04 PM
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It's been a long strange trip without you Skipper, but thanks for pointing us in the right direction and giving us a swift kick in the behind to get us going. Keep lookin' down on us, will ya? Thanks.
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Oh, and here's some kind of visitor flag counter thingy. Hey, all the cool blogs have one, so I should too. The Visitors Online thingy up at the top doesn't count anything, but it looks neat. It had better, since I paid actual money for it.